I Intend to start a study about commercial profiles

@Locrain wrote:

“I am wondering if has something to do with the KPA's extreme (IMO) oversensitivity to different guitars/pickups. But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless we consider this sensitivity to be so extreme that it is a legitimate issue (not a feature, but a bug) because you have several very high-quality guitars there.“

The KPA is no more sensitive to individual guitar differences than analog guitar amplifiers. Guitars that are not designed to sound like Ike telecasters will not sound like a telecaster.

Quote from paults

@Locrain wrote:

“I am wondering if has something to do with the KPA's extreme (IMO) oversensitivity to different guitars/pickups. But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless we consider this sensitivity to be so extreme that it is a legitimate issue (not a feature, but a bug) because you have several very high-quality guitars there.“

The KPA is no more sensitive to individual guitar differences than analog guitar amplifiers. Guitars that are not designed to sound like Ike telecasters will not sound like a telecaster.

Hm, in the end I come to this point too. Michael has written that he didn't reach demoed sounds and he is willing to analyze that.
After all these checks here there is no more analize necessary imho.

It's obvius. If you dont use the same or nearly the same gear you wont get in the ballpark as you except when buying the profiles. The kpa didn't change a tele in a strat or a gibson, or whatever. Comparing is over for me. When I will buy profiles in future, I won't buy profiles anymore without one or two free samples to check out if they sound like I expect.
I have enough packs that sound like shit and also many many packs that sound like heaven. Angry about the shit sounding ones because I had better invested these money in beer (cheers Ash )

I don't care any longer about this tele sound. Musicmad has shown, that he came in the ballpark when using a tele. Sorry Michael, that means you have to buy some guitars....

So my wish to all profile suppliers:

-Load up one or two freebees of your packs and we can check if they fit to our taste
-Describe the signalchain when you place demos
-Fullfill the rig inspector field in rm, so that we got all those nice informations about used mic, using purecab or not, pu's, cabs and so on,

Thanks to everyone who has given comments here. That was really intresting.

Cheers
Frank

Quote from paults

The KPA is no more sensitive to individual guitar differences than analog guitar amplifiers.

I do respect your postings and appreciate any info you provide, you are extremely knowledgeable, and I take what you say seriously, and I am not trying to argue, so to speak, but...

This has been the extreme opposite of my experience, which is not insignificant. I also believe the KPA to be much more sensitive to the pickups/guitar used during profiling than Kemper would like to let on, and that it has something to do with this "issue". I have had the same guitars for 10 years, 10-15 different amps, and (again, to my ears), the KPA stands alone in it's sensitivity to guitar and pickup choice.

Quote from Locrain

I do respect your postings and appreciate any info you provide, you are extremely knowledgeable, and I take what you say seriously, and I am not trying to argue, so to speak, but...
This has been the extreme opposite of my experience, which is not insignificant. I also believe the KPA to be much more sensitive to the pickups/guitar used during profiling than Kemper would like to let on, and that it has something to do with this "issue". I have had the same guitars for 10 years, 10-15 different amps, and (again, to my ears), the KPA stands alone in it's sensitivity to guitar and pickup choice.

I have to admit that my experience has been exactly the same as Paul’s. When I profile my pwn Boogies and A/B compare the results I don’t find the profile any more or less sensitive to guitar/pickup choices than the real amp.

I have never understood the concept that the guitar used “during profiling” makes a huge difference school of thought. As there is no guitar used in the actual profiling process I can’t see how this is a major issue. I understand that one or more guitars must be used when setting the amp but many profilers test the settings with multiple guitars so that should significantly reduce any specific bias and any differences should be able to be compensated for wil a minor tweak to the eq as with the original amp

I also find the Kemper responds to volume knob adjustments pretty kuch exactly like the real amp. Rolling back the volume can play a very dramatic role in the final tone with both a real amp and the KPA. Obviously there is the difference in gain level which can often range from totally clean to pretty dirty ( that More Gain profile is a great example) but there is also often a significant tonal difference. Unless an HB guitar has a treble bleed capacitor fitted the sound gets noticeably less bright as the volume is reduced.

Quote from Wheresthedug

I have never understood the concept that the guitar used “during profiling” makes a huge difference school of thought. As there is no guitar used in the actual profiling process I can’t see how this is a major issue. I understand that one or more guitars must be used when setting the amp but many profilers test the settings with multiple guitars so that should significantly reduce any specific bias and any differences should be able to be compensated for wil a minor tweak to the eq as with the original amp

I understand that Kemper now considers refining to be optional, but does the guitar used not have any effect during that part of the profiling?

@Locrain that’s a fair point I suppose but I think the refining process is really just about capturing initial transients rather than anything more dramatic. I imagine it would play a part but don’t think it would be that significant. It might be interesting to make a profile twice without changing anything other than the guitar used for refining and see how big a difference there is.

Set up your tube amp for a Strat with Lace Sensors and ash body and ask your friend to plug a Gibson in, then play it. Or even a different Strat. Or, if you pick like wimp because you never played a tube amp, only modellers/software which react like guitar synth (not Kemper or very few others), it will not sound right.

The difference a) player b) guitar makes is massive. Profiler models that very well.

Right, I'm not really talking about that, and definitely not talking about the "player variable" since this "issue" occurs with the same player/same guitar.

I definitely didn't mean to say that the KPA does not respond appropriately to a Strat vs a Les Paul, it seems to do a very good job at that. So apologies for any confusion on my end.

I'm more referring to the fairly common observation that the KPA seems to make some guitars (regardless of quality) sound significantly worse than they did on amps used before the KPA. I have been told this from commercial profilers as well, it's unfortunate that this thread was posted in a section that prevents most of those with the most practical experience from posting in it. Either way, if it's a misconception, it's a common one. It is normally spun (justifiably), as a feature, and not a bug, as if it is revealing the true nature of the guitar more accurately that a conventional amp.

I have a PRS USA Singlecut that I have absolutely loved for 10 years. It was my main live/recording axe, it sounded amazing. As soon as I buy the Kemper, I can't stand the thing. It still sounds fine on my Triamp. Maybe it's all in my head, that could be the case. But I'm not alone at least.

@Locrain the Kemper does not mask a poorly setup guitar. I've learned so much about my guitars just from owning a Kemper. Just like you I thought the Kemper had flaws. Turned out it was my technique and guitar setup. I've been playing guitar on and off since 1990.

Quote from schreckmusic

@Locrain the Kemper does not mask a poorly setup guitar. I've learned so much about my guitars just from owning a Kemper. Just like you I thought the Kemper had flaws. Turned out it was my technique and guitar setup. I've been playing guitar on and off since 1990.

Well actually, and I should have been more clear, improper setup has actually been my primary theory. I didn't mean to claim that there was anything wrong with the Kemper, just that it treats some guitars "differently", and I didnt understand why. Less masking/more accuracy makes about as much sense as anything.

Thank you for posting that, it gIves me even more motivation to give this thing a really good setup. I hope that takes care of it, I will update the thread when I do.

maybe a standard of some sort, like a single strings, gauge and pick up type mentioned that all sellers profile so one can find the one that matches
their setup and be closer , people can profile on their own, so if someone is making money of selling profiles they could include a few more or say that
they do not have that particular version.

Quote from Eltzejupp

So my wish to all profile suppliers:

-Load up one or two freebees of your packs and we can check if they fit to our taste
-Describe the signalchain when you place demos
-Fullfill the rig inspector field in rm, so that we got all those nice informations about used mic, using purecab or not, pu's, cabs and so on,

... and of course the exact model of guitar, IMHO Frank, as opposed to the usual, for those who even bother, "Strat / Tele / LP" tag.

I mean, as we all know, a Strat ain't a Strat ain't a Super Strat. Vintage (year), woods, PU's, bridge and as has been said, strings, all alter the tone and these differences would be reflected in the settings arrived at on the Profiled amp.

An abbreviated overview in the comment field would suffice for the time being IMHO, such as:

Custom Strat / Rose-Map-Ald / EMG 85 / FL / EB Slinky

Only problems with this are the 32-character limit (the above comment uses over 50 and is already-abbreviated) and inability to sort the associated column in RM in a meaningful way, which lead to my opinion that we need more tag fields. They could be guitar-specific, just as the amp and cab ones are, specified as style (you'd input Strat, Tele, LP or whatever), PU, body, neck and fretboard (for woods), and whatever else Kemper sees fit.

IIRC Kemper confirmed a long time ago that the file format of Profiles allowed for the addition of metadata, which not only would mean more text fields in this case, but as I've hoped for for an equally-long time, pictures of both amps and cabs Profiled.

Quote from michaelmellner

guys...wow what did I start! I'm really glad you jumped in to share your experiences.

and I'm sure I can be spokesman of all of you when I say that my thread has only one goal: to always get the most out of our kpa machine.

since the beginning I have firmly stated that my intention was not to denigrate any fine profiling job of all the sellers. And I think you and they (the profilers) trust me on that.

this said, in the next hours I intend to perform other tests even thouh I have listened to various test in this thread: thank you Frank for this...and the others as well!

So...at the end of 5 pages of thread contribution I think it is fair to say the following - at least fair for me - that could serve as an answer to various questions I read here:

- the matter here is NOT to achieve a perfect identical timbre so that everyone that buys that profile is a clone of someone else. What I'm looking for is to achieve the ESSENCE (essence means you can clearly recognize that sound heard) of the sound I'm listening when checking out a demo of a profile seller. Sometimes the essence is there...sometimes it is not and we are far, as many have stated.

- the istening to the demos posted by the profiles sellers is for sure necessary for the buyers or we are facing a blind purchase. I understand when many say that the demo should not be taken into account. Then how do I check what I'm about to purchase? Is there some one who would dare to sell a profile of an amp just by mentioning the amp name? c'mon!
So I would advice the sellers, from now on, to make sure the sound they are selling is achievable in many different situation. This could be done by maybe selecting some beta testers and get the results. I know this could be some added work for them. But at least the product sold would be somewhat bulletproof!

- I would advice the sellers to give potential customer a free sample of the profile they are selling. Some sellers do this (Rigbusters, GoldLion, and maybe others), while many don't do it, deliberately. As far as I'm concern, from now on I will never purchase a pack anymore unless I can test a sample.

- I don't know if already done, but I would advice the sellers to warn potential customer that the result they showcase in the demo may vary, and vary by very much, from what the customer will have

- since I started this thread and similar on other location (Facebook) I go on reading about how much a guitar affects the timbre we are about to achieve from a profile. One of the culprit main item is pickups. The first test Frank posted at page three of this thread (

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) declares the end of the nonsense of "different pickup changes radically the sound". Frank has used different guitars listed on his post with quite different pickups and the result is quite identical. Of course some little tiny things can be heard that we can call differences (I would call the tendencies towards certains frequencies), but the sound is there for all the guitars test in that demo
Naturally...an original single coil pickup of a telecaster will definitely sound different from a dimarzio humbucker. But as you know, we are not talking about our need to have with a single coil pickup the same timbre with a profile done with a humbucker pickup. Al least we would like to have, with a fairly decent humbucker the same thing we heard on a humbucker guitar demo.

Just some considerations...

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Hi Michael, Thanks for this statement. Here is nothing to add.

I totally agree.

Cheers
Frank

I'm hoping not to piss anyone off and I'm all for transparency in what you get. And how you can obtain that tone yourself.

In this thread I haven't seen any evidence of "foul" play though - every example has been debunked. And I should think that it allows everyone to consider what they are using, and how they are playing it.

That's not saying it doesn't happen though - I'm all for trying some more examples. Keep em coming!

Again - only trying to contribute constructively.

One thing, to my ears, is that there is some serious EQ shift in Eltzejupp reference audio clip in the beginning of the Soundcloud audio track (Ruben part that is).

Just to try it out I had to download the video and extract the same marshall clip and compare it to the (supposedly) matching part in Eltzejupps Soundcloud track (just to make sure ir is not about Soundcloud either).

Quote from michaelmellner

thanks JuLai...it is safe to say that the difference in how a profile sometimes plays is not at all dependent from the way we listen to it. It is a certainty that this is what happens. At first I thought to be one rare case but I have seen it is a large number of people haveng the same experience I had.

Hmm. Just to make sure my message wasn't unclear, but I was trying to say I think there is a problem somewhere in Eltzejupp's setup which offsets the comparison (by having the reference wrong) and makes the biggest difference there.