Paralysis When Choosing FRFR?

  • Okay I have had my Kemper close to 2 weeks and LOVE it! Played it live yesterday with IEM and it sounded sooooo good. I have never liked the way mic'ed guitars sounded in IEM and at best they sounded okay, but yesterday was the first time the guitar sounded GOOD using IEM. FYI I was plugged direct into PA using XLR


    As a side note, I haven't ever been this inspired from gear before. Even when I bought my Suhr Classic Pro, it didn't get me playing as much as the Kemper has!


    Now I am looking for a FRFR. I have actually been researching FRFRs as long as I have been researching Kemper/Helix/Fractal, which is quite a long while.


    And it seems that every recommendation on a FRFR there are 2 other opinions on another forum/thread that say literally the opposite.


    Now I can't decide on what to get.


    I realize that personal preference is a major deciding factor, but why is there no clear consensus on a FRFR?


    When it comes to traditional guitar amps/cabs, people who don't like particular amps say "It sounds nice but not my taste." And when it comes to FRFR, people who don't like a particular FRFR speaker are STRONGLY against it and describe it as thin and processed and other generally non-flattering terms.


    All this research is giving me paralysis :O


    I have been recording with my Kemper the past 2 weeks and really like the way it sounds in headphones (and yesterday's live IEM), now I need a speaker.........


    ....and the more I research the less I know lol



    Am I the only one? And why is there no consensus for FRFR's?

  • Like any gear purchase - you will find differing opinions...though CLR is generally accepted as a high quality option.


    Not the thump of a cabinet - which some FRFR solutions do try to build in (Gemini etc) - but CLR would be my recommendation.

    PRS Custom 22's - Fender Strats - Diezel VH4 - Carol Ann OD2 - Toneking Imperial MK2 - Colin the Kemper - CLR Neo ii.

  • I feel your pain! Price played heavily into my decision so I did not try any of the higher priced options. Also, wether you have the powered head or not obviously plays into it. Mine is not powered. So, I went directly to the cheapest and most portable option as I do haul it around on gigs. I went with the EV- zlx-12p powered monitor. Also tried the Headrush which I'm sure you have researched. My Headrush lasted one gig and died so thats when I went with the EV. I actually like the sound of the EV better. Much better actually. I can't compare to much else but I can tell you that as a gigging musician, as a guy who used to have a Mesa Roadster and cab cranked up behind me, and a guy who also uses IEM but still want some of that sound on stage and while practicing at home........I can't imagine being disappointed with this EV powered monitor! But, as with any FRFR or the like, you will hear a big difference compared to that guitar cab sound that has been stuck in your head for as long as you have played. It's different. Not worse. Just different. It only took me literally a few hours to get over that. Now when I plug into a guitar cab, it sounds harsh to me.


    I should add....you will see negative reports on this EV monitor as well as almost everything else out there. But, there are built in EQ controls as well as other parameters that can be adjusted. I read a lot of "exaggerated bass" reviews. Well, then turn down the bass a bit.....pretty damn easy!

  • Been there, done that. I agree with all comments above. The reason why you don't find consensus, is that there is a wide range of options, different user needs/preferences/budgets, different ears... Try to find local or online retailers with a flexible return policy. Otherwise, you will have to take some risks based in your best research and budget, though.

  • Yup, feel yer pain. I started with a Carvin powered monitor. It did and still does work great, with some volume. Always kept it flat in spite of it having all kinds of eq settings. Then got some Yamaha HSM(?) 5s. They sounded great, with some volume. Got slightly off track because they had a mid boost switch which I hit at some point and never compared them to the Carvin. Upgraded to HS 8s and at first, thought the 5s sounded better, but that was because the 8s were set flat and the 5s had the mid boost on. Got my rigs back in line with the set flat HS8s and they sound great, with some volume. Bought a Headrush FRFR 5 months ago and keep it set flat (boost off) and it sounds great, with some volume. The band broke up so I have a s#$t-ton of gear in the basement now, so I set up our old 3-way mains with a 3000w power amp and plugged my guitar in... They sound great, with some volume. So I compared everything to each other. Everything set flat other than the rigs themselves. Obviously, the 3000 watt mains sound killer because, well, 3000 watts of sound pressure. When turned up, the Headrush sound slightly better than the Carvin because it has 2000 watts vs 400 watts. When set to about the same volume, they all sound very similar, no dramatic differences. The differences come in with LOW volumes. The lower I go, the more they change. So now, when I set up a rig, I only do so at about the sound level I will play at. When I turn down to practice quietly, I don't make changes to rigs based on the lower volume. I compare the Headrush and the HS8s while setting up rigs at gig volumes and they sound about the same except, obviously, the HS8s are in stereo.

    Learn to Swim

  • ampoholic yep the difference at low volume is a phenomenon about how our ears work. At low volume we are much more sensitive to mids and les sensitive to lows and highs. When you turn down things tend to get muddy. If you eq to sound good at low vokume you tend to have way too much bass and treble at low volume which is why extreme scooped mid V curve GEQ settings sound awesome at bedroom levels but get totally lost in a real band situation. It doesn’t matter how good the gear is we just can’t been nature.

  • Concerning FRFR's, here's a few things I've noticed:

    1) Many standard wedge FRFR's do not have a flat response, but are EQ'd for "vocals and intelligibility" or something like that. Unfortunately FRFR's with that EQ have the treble and bass boosted, just the thing to make a guitar tone sound bad. You have to ensure that the monitor truly has flat response.

    2) If you need lots of volume on stage, FRFR's are like car engines; no replacement for displacement. A 10" monitor can get totally lost in a live environment if it is a loud stage. I prefer a 15" if I can get it.

    3) Even though a less expensive FRFR has great specs, often a cheap FRFR will NOT tell you unfavorable specs like maximum SPL. Cheaper speakers can reach a maximum SPL due to its design and less expensive parts, and when it hits its maximum SPL, will just turn any additional power into heat.

    4) Cheaper FRFR's with limited max SPL in the woofer can run out of steam before the tweeter, and on the loud stage at the upper volume point, you will hear nothing but tweeter, and that is an ugly experience.

    5) If you are looking at active FRFR's, the internal power amp rating won't tell you much, as the actual acoustic volume will depend on speaker impedance as well as efficiency. The power amp rating is just one piece of the puzzle. You are most interested in maximum SPL.


    As was mentioned before, try before you buy, and at realistic stage volumes. Some may think that all FRFR's sound alike, but they most certainly do not. And you do get what you pay for in FRFR's, so don't skimp, and stay with well regarded brands.

  • Regarding cabinets with the Kemper:


    I've been using the Mission Engineering Gemini 2 for two years now and it sounds great because at low volumes you can blend in the EmPower™ active crossover with variable EQ. This sends more or less signal to the 1" high frequency compression drivers. At stage volume I turn down the EmPower™ knob to get more of the 12" speakers and less of the HF drivers. This allows me to precisely dial in a more realistic guitar cabinet sound at any volume.


    When I give lessons during the week I use the line in on a Blackstar BEAM and it sounds great for low volumes too.

  • I have had really good luck with the accugroove java 112s, one passive and one active with the powered toaster. They use a coaxial config which acts like studio monitors at low volumes but gives a really decent amp in the room vibe at gig level.

  • Nice post, especially point 2! Depends on how you are going to use 'em really and much weight you want to lug around!


    I have 2 DXR10's and they work great for me but I don't think I'd want them if I were doing larger shows. A 12" would be my minimum! I now use a Mesa 2x12 w/ vintage 30's too and it sounds pretty damn good. Lots of great advice here, as usual! Specify your needs a bit clearer to help hone in on a choice that fits for you! :)

  • I eventually decided that the best option for me was a pair of EV ZLX15P speakers with stands so I can use them for electric, acoustic, or bass, plus as an inexpensive smallish PA.


    They sound really good to me, but not like top shelf PA gear. I'm very happy.

  • Yeah but you guys have to compare stereo with mono. All as i am saying is try stereo first (like the Gemini 2 cab)

    check the pin pong and other effects, its a wide field , its the first time we have been able to get a 2X12 thats stereo and takes advantage of the new delays... wait till the reverbs come you will be happy that you play in stereo. Its also PUNCHY(er)


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • For choosing your suiting FRFR make a recording with your favorite Profile and take the MP3-file on your mobile to the store.

    You can now compare the different FRFR-types.

    Very important is, to check different volume-levels. IMO here the different types differ most.

  • Yeah but you guys have to compare stereo with mono. All as i am saying is try stereo first (like the Gemini 2 cab)

    check the pin pong and other effects, its a wide field , its the first time we have been able to get a 2X12 thats stereo and takes advantage of the new delays... wait till the reverbs come you will be happy that you play in stereo. Its also PUNCHY(er)


    Ash

    Yes mate...we have spoke about stereo a lot because its even better than girls. Fact.


    So 2 of anything or a single stereo cab takes the whole thing to another level!


    Thinking about it, and for how important the stereo field is for my playing, I reckon I'd rather have 2 cheap nasty things in stereo than 1 high quality FRFR...

    PRS Custom 22's - Fender Strats - Diezel VH4 - Carol Ann OD2 - Toneking Imperial MK2 - Colin the Kemper - CLR Neo ii.

  • SIDENOTE: I had a Jet City 24S+ that sounded amazing and the stereo imaging was surprisingly good. So I agree on the sentiments about stereo. Also, this cab is made with 5/8" plywood (maybe even 1/2"), so it resonated just right. Sounded huge and changed how I felt about cabinet construction.


    ...as you were.

  • Great opinions being shared here!

    What is the use case?

    Bedroom?

    Studio?

    Backline?

    Monitor?


    I have a DXR-10, and I have a Xitone MBritt 12" coax powered cab.

    They both sound excellent.

    The DXR-10 is amazing and extremely portable with various placement options, and it's freakin' loud.

    The Xitone is more versatile, more guitar cab looking, and you can plonk the Kemper on top with room for a wireless. It also has the option for closed or open back at will by removing the back plate.

    I run it open back and like it a lot. It is currently my backline and my only source on stage in our studio.


    Speakers are VERY subjective of course. I wanted to go FRFR because I wanted to experience rigs as the profiler intended as much as possible instead of a dedicated 2x12 and power amp etc.

    Lots of great choices out there!