Any advantage to using two FRFR speakers?

Quote from ashtweth

In regards to - technically sabotaged

WTF man, this is really a thing? I researched a lot of music culture because we want to start a new activism music genre (on issues to help many, just music with themes in it that do activism work) so i had to study a lot of music culture and how music has changed the landscape etc.

But F me man, i have never read about this. This is really True?, so its all financially motivated then?

WTF man.

Ash

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You ever been to one of those “Battle of the Bands” competitions, Ash? Nine out of 10 of those are rigged like this.

Sabotage of supporting acts is really common. My niece is now a headline artist, but early in her career they used to make her vocals muffled and mess with her guitar volume to prevent her from embarrassing the headliner.

I used to get so pissed off. I confronted a sound guy once and he shrugged and said I'm just doing my job with a look that said it all.

I get the point of the mono vs stereo thing, but it's hard to imagine what a Pink Floyd concert would sound like with a completely mono mix.

Quote from Finally

Sabotage of supporting acts is really common. My niece is now a headline artist, but early in her career they used to make her vocals muffled and mess with her guitar volume to prevent her from embarrassing the headliner.

I used to get so pissed off. I confronted a sound guy once and he shrugged and said I'm just doing my job with a look that said it all.

Back in the 90's, my old band paid £25,000 to get on a tour with a big chart act, as support band. The stage crew intentionally wouldn't let us use the subs in the PA, to make the headliners appear more powerful than us. They were very open about it, it might even have been in the contract. That was commonplace back then, and I'm sure more underhand tactics were used when there wasn't any verbal or written agreement.

Man i used to think musicians were good people..not all of em ..This is the first i have heard of this.

Ash

Quote from ashtweth

Man i used to think musicians were good people..not all of em ..This is the first i have heard of this.

Ash

In our case, it wasn't the musicians, but the record company and A&R/management that insisted on it. The lads on stage couldn't give a toss.

It's a business at the end of the day. It's not musicians that demand it. It's their managers and labels.

Quote from OhG

This is true. But the situations I’m talking about are more along the lines of a smaller club 300 people or so. Not venues where the stage is extremely wide and speakers are really far apart.

It doesn’t change in smaller venues. All speakers are directional (especially at higher frequencies. Therefore, the sound travels out at an maximum angle. In smaller clubs where the stage isn’t as wide the audience are invariably closer to the speakers so they still don’t get 1/2 the mix. I’ve been in the audience at small 300 capacity clubs with a stereo mix running and it infuriates me that I can’t hear anything approaching a decent sound unless I fight my way to the swear spot in the middle about 2/3rds of the way back from the stage.

Thanks for filling me in AJ/Sam/Fin, Silly me Sam, i should of guess mate, the INDUSTRY ruined Jimi Hendrix and just about every one else.

Of cause it had to be the bloody industry twats.

The more musicians can separate themselves from the industry the better

Funny that activism music genre we are working on has how to do that, (independent from the industry) we write about the industry

I again never knew they also did that BS

Ash

Quote from Finally

I get the point of the mono vs stereo thing, but it's hard to imagine what a Pink Floyd concert would sound like with a completely mono mix.

This !
I don't know if we are talking about the same thing when talking about stereo.
It's one thing to have an instrument paned right and another panned left during the whole show (or a guitar and some effects), effectively causing the half of the crowd to hear half of the sound during the whole rig, but it's probably a different thing to have some carefully placed special effects (like ping pong delay, or rotating effects) used sparingly during a few seconds. And i guess those effects can pe heard correctly by most of the crowd.

Totally with you and Finally on that one

Quote from Wheresthedug

Surely that is actually the opposite of the problem with a stereo mix. The people in the middle are the only ones getting a stereo mix as intended so adding a mono mix negates much of the benefit for them. On the other hand the further to each side you move the more of the mix you lose so the more beneficial a mono mix would be. I’ve experienced this many times when watching bands from a position at one side of the stage. In some cases the guitar completely disappears if you are on the wrong side of the stage.

I agree that the sound engineer’s job is to make the BAND sound good. I don’t think the complaint is about needto run one extra cable or mix an extra channel. It’s really about the space the guitar takes up in the mix and how stereo FX translate to the overall band sound. Panning guitar hard left and hard right is unlikely to provide the best band mix in many situations. A 3 or 4 piece would probably get a bigger more lush sound but bigger bands with a more complex mix can become indistinct. I played in a 10 piece band for 25 years. A stereo guitar sound is the last thing we needed to give clarity and depth to the mix

If the FOH is running in stereo often the best thing for the sound guy is to have a single point of guitar to position where he needs to in the stereo field. A stereo guitar signal will take up more “space” leaving less for other instruments to find their place in the mix. Plus hard right/left panning means most of the audience are only geting parial benefit (or significant detriment) from the stereo FX.

That’s just my opinion other opinions may be equally valid.

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Wheresthedug... good points. I play in a 9 piece band with a horn line. Stereo main mix doesn't make much sense for this project. My projects normally rely on hired sound. I have been in groups that did the stereo main mix. It was great- in some rooms. A hard panned main mix can only satisfy so many ears in the audience. Phase cancellation is another hurdle to deal with. That said, I love playing/ montoring in stereo. I use a rack mount mixer that I send my guitar and vocal to in stereo. The band aux/ monitor mix usually comes back to me in balanced mono. Since I am using IEM 100% of the time, I get a stereo mix from my gtr and vox, while the rest of the band is in mono in my IEM mix. I have found it is a good way to have control over what you hear on stage, no matter who is running sound. This system eliminates 2 major problems for me: being told to turn down and always hoping the monitor tech can get you what you need. As long as the band aux mix is balanced, you can add your gtr and vox and achieve a good stereo-esk monitor mix independently.

The Meyerson in Dallas is by far the best room I ever got to play stereo fretless bass.

If the venue works you should go for it.

I think what we can all agree on here is stereo vs mono really depends on a multitude of factors (effects used, the PA, number of people in the band, what all the other band members are using for monitors, etc). I just know for my particular situation, stereo is amazing. We’re just a 4-piece band with one guitar. All of us use stereo in-ears. I don’t use a ton of effects, so anyone in the audience that is sitting on the side isn’t really going to notice much of a difference at all. My guitar tone and level is the same no matter where you sit. It’s only very subtle delays that might not be heard. Separating the guitar the way it should be also allows the bass to sit in the mix where it should be (down the middle). For us, stereo just works perfectly because we’ve tailored our entire system for it. And it’s mainly for our own satisfaction in our in-ears. As I’ve said many times, if you are stoked about how you’re hearing you’re guitar, it’ll translate in your performance.

Was sabotaged big-time back in the '80s. "Classy" fusion-inspired pop would've made the average Aussie pub-rock band sound like shite, so it's no wonder. It was a rare gig when we were actually allowed to sound good. Probably 1 in 8 or so, no kidding.

Quote from ashtweth

Man i used to think musicians were good people..not all of em ..This is the first i have heard of this.

Ash

You are a lucky guy Ash. Unfortunately it is very common, sometimes it's underhanded, sometimes it is out wide in the open. It'll range from what others have already mentioned, an open requirement in contract (opening bands had to use a neutered PA), to more shady practices, like purposefully nerfing the FOH mix in variousways. And a lot of bands bring their own soundguy, so no matter how good your relationship is with the normal soundguy, there's not really a lot he can do for you. But it happens at the local level too, I have seen it and talked to other local musicians about it quite a few times. Sometimes the guy doesn't like your music, sometimes he just doesn't like you, sometimes he wants his friends to sound better.

I have always found it a sound investment to make the relationship between your band and the guy running sound as smooth as possible, they are the one person in the room that can really make a difference in how you sound, and you never know who is listening.

I've learned a lot here. I'm a day job and occasional small gig guy, so my comments are from that perspective. Really appreciate the input from real pros that live this stuff.

I can only ask you to give me your best work. So far so good.

Quote from OhG

I think what we can all agree on here is stereo vs mono really depends on a multitude of factors (effects used, the PA, number of people in the band, what all the other band members are using for monitors, etc). I just know for my particular situation, stereo is amazing. We’re just a 4-piece band with one guitar. All of us use stereo in-ears. I don’t use a ton of effects, so anyone in the audience that is sitting on the side isn’t really going to notice much of a difference at all. My guitar tone and level is the same no matter where you sit. It’s only very subtle delays that might not be heard. Separating the guitar the way it should be also allows the bass to sit in the mix where it should be (down the middle). For us, stereo just works perfectly because we’ve tailored our entire system for it. And it’s mainly for our own satisfaction in our in-ears. As I’ve said many times, if you are stoked about how you’re hearing you’re guitar, it’ll translate in your performance.

You've made me rethink this so I'm gonna give it a go.

I was skeptical that there would be much benefit to a relatively basic set up. For a single guitar band makes perfect sense, just wondering if for a 2 guitar band ( where you want to fit in the pocket rather than fill out) might make it more of an issue