Kemper making me lazy

    And I mean this strictly in the sense of not tweaking.


    I blame it on the fact that I’m so spoilt with the tones I am fed, that I automatically began to assume that just by switching from profile to profile, I was going to get sounds that the profiler tended to be conveyed even though I am using my guitar, my fingers, etc.


    Consequently, I have been in the camp of the users who say if you’re not getting the sound you want, try another profile.


    In effect,this is telling guys to jump into a rabbit hole, because there are so many free and commercial profiles, you could not possibly do an evaluation of each and every one of them.


    I was watching a video just now that changed my whole perspective.


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    Look at how the guy tweaks the amps to get the sound you would hear on the album versions of the songs he demos.


    Just goes to show that most of us are just scratching the hood of the profiler and not diving deep into the waters.


    If anyone is unsure how to tweak, I suggest watching Eltzejupp ’s excellent videos. :thumbup:

    Guys, I got so into this that I am now questioning the basic principle of profiling in order to create a 1:1 replica.


    In fact, for profiling noobs like me (and there are plenty of us), we often try to profile, then get disheartened when we realise we don't have golden ears, we have a terrible collection of mics, our rooms suck acoustically, and we don't have racks of studio equipment.


    Given such extenuating circumstances, we often throw our lot in with commercial profilers who know their way around the studio and have access to amps that we do not.


    At the same time, I've always felt that I am missing a huge "something" when I use others profiles. It's not my tone, so I don't feel attached to it in the least.


    Recording with these tones to me is also problematic, because I don't know how to fit them within the music. This often leads to hilarious situations where you are chopping and compressing in all kinds of strange ways because the tone - as great as it is in isolation - has no place in your mix.


    So today I profiled my PRS Archon 25 Combo. Not a huge amp, just a 1x12" cone, great tone, but put it up against a bigger head and it'll be destroyed. Another amp I am planning to sell because I feel it lacks body.


    After I profiled, I didn't just sigh and say, "Oh gee, I guess that's that." I started messing with definition, gain, clarity, pick. tube shape, tube bias, low shift, high shift and presence.


    At the end of all that, I was amazed! It is by no means the "perfect profile", but compared to what I started with, it was a revelation.


    This gives hope to all us cats that want to create our own tones with the Kemper, but are unable to figure out how too. These "deeper parameters (they're only one button deep at all times) allow us to completely change the sound of the amp and cabinet sections.


    I've put up the profile on the Rig Exchange. It's called PRS Archon Brootal C.


    Again, just to stress, this is not an amazing profile, but trust me, compared to what it originally was, it is 100 times better. In fact, A/Bing it to a lot of profiles, I am really proud of my tweaking ability.


    Going back to the original post, I'll also say this. If you have a great collection of commercial profiles that you couldn't gel with, find one that you thought had promise and then completely change the sucker.


    Good days are ahead! I'm happy I was wrong about this whole thing!

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    You're coming full-circle, AJ. ;)

    I know, right! Super excited about this.


    In fact, it has also helped me figure out where I'm going wrong profiling!


    PS: For everyone who though that rig blew, do try the next profile I made, PRS Archon Brootal D. This one hasn't been tweaked at all and sounds really good. A really good starting point for tweaking!

    Being fairly new to the game, things are just now settling back down to making music after the initial adventures of getting things configured and integrated into my environment, picking up some commercial packs that match my taste, organizing in Rig Manager, etc.


    In fact, just last night I was working on something where the commercial profile I selected was almost perfect. What I was missing was just 1.5 of bass that had been rolled off, which I suspect has as much to do with the guitar I was using versus the guitar it was profiled with as anything else.


    I've always admired the people who can fool with amps & pedals or go deep diving in a modeler and come up with these amazing tones. That's never been my thing. However, with all these great profiles at my disposal, what I am able to do is find something that's pretty close and then move it the last couple of inches. I'm comfortable with that because it's already a great tone to begin with, which was the hard part for me. Needs more cowbell? That I can do.


    Of course, I'm also quite comfortable with the, "just try another profile" approach. If it's the perfect sound for the song right out of the box, I don't feel compelled to tweak it just to feel like I did something. I'd rather focus on my fingers than the knobs unless there's a reason to do otherwise.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

    Like 1

    Yup. That's why it irks me when people knock Kemper profiles for being a "snapshot" or the original amp. Sure, the farther you get from the profiled settings -- the more you gain up, the more you EQ -- the less "authentic" it sounds. Do I care? No.


    Perhaps the most widely praised profile, @rmpacheco's AC30 was modified heavily post capture. But that's what makes it legendary!


    One of my favorite profiles is a relatively low-gain version of the PT-20 by nll , but it just starts smoking when you gain it up. It gets even better.


    So yes, a profile has limits when it comes to emulating every amp setting in a single profile, but the converse is also true... the profile can go into sonic territory that's impossible with the original amp.

    Quote from benvigil

    Sure, the farther you get from the profiled settings -- the more you gain up, the more you EQ -- the less "authentic" it sounds. Do I care? No.

    Definitely agree. The only place I care about authenticity is in my playing.


    I'm no expert, but I'm guessing the average consumer couldn't pick a Bogner out of a police lineup.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

    Like 2

    I do care about authenticity, which is why I got a Kemper after all. But there's certainly a degree of freedom within adjustments you make to a profile where it retains the character of the original pretty well. Having said that I still would like the ability to mix between two or more profiles to create a new hybrid profile somewhere between say a Marshall and a Fender, an amp that doesn't exist at all in the real world.

    Quote from Per

    I do care about authenticity

    I know there are a lot of folks who do. Out of curiosity, what's the benefit?


    Is it a matter of having a recognizable reference point when you go searching for tones, e.g. you know you're looking for a Plexi kind of sound so it helps that you have authentically modeled Marshalls?


    I do find that sort of thing helpful, but at the end of the day all I really care about is the sound coming out of the speakers. That said, the Kemper is a new experience for me, which is why I'm hoping for insights from folks who have been it a lot longer.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

    Just had a chance to try those two profiles AJ. I'm not a metal head but I love those. I agree C sounds more polished but D is more "natural" for want of a better word. They both sound great to me but I can see how C would sit better in a mix. My first impression was that C just sounded better because it was louder but when I knocked the 2.6db volume boost in the Amp block off it still sounded way tighter and more polished. Great work!

    Well this is really about personal taste and preference. There's no right or wrong, just opinion on what turns me on and why. For me it's a matter of it's the tone that I like and have grown up with and prefer to the tones that I think of as "amp sim" tones that modern metal and pop seem to love - and it's also a matter of being able to continue to use the tones of my actual amps.


    That's the reason I bought a Kemper as opposed to an AxeFX. It's not about how simple the Kemper is to use for me, I actually enjoy tweaking technical stuff, instead it's about how authentic, organic and rich the tones are.


    It's why I feel it's worth it's premium over say a Pod or software amp sim while I don't feel the same thing for most other competitors. The Kemper to me is a means to augment, control and enhance my amp collection, it's the digital hub for the valves. The tones I want day to day really already exist in the analog realm but they're not always convenient, they might drift during tracking, they might get completely screwed up after a visit to the tech, they're often too loud for where I live, the Kemper takes some of the more stressful error out of the equation.

    Don't get me wrong, modern sim sounds can be exciting to play and are built to be punchy and be clear through the mix and the near infinite sustain makes for great legato, they are polished as anything, but it's just not what I like to listen to for any length of time, it's doesn't sound exciting or risky to me because most of the time it's dependent on the sim's characteristics, the gear to make it sound exciting rather than the playing, it's just not what I want to sound like.

    Quote from Per

    ...it's also a matter of being able to continue to use the tones of my actual amps... The Kemper to me is a means to augment, control and enhance my amp collection...

    That makes a lot of sense to me. Because I sold all my amps it's easy to forget that many haven't. If you're still running amps and Kemper in the same world, the authenticity makes sense. And I certainly get it in terms of profiling your own stuff. Not much point in capturing your mega cool, vintage amp if when you're done it doesn't sound like the mega cool, vintage amp.


    Thanks for all the detail. I've still a lot to learn, and I'm enjoying the experience.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

    When I first got my Kemper, I was somewhat weirdly apprehensive about tweaking the profiles. I’d find one that was good and all the tweaking was basically done with effects or EQ. Somehow I had this silly idea that I shouldn’t “destroy” the profile... as if it was some sacred thing.


    I quickly got over that. Now I view it kind of like I would view a pure modeler. I think as a profile as a “default preset,” or some initialized preset of a specific model. Sometimes, actually most of the time, I’m kind of good to go with a profile as is. There’s nothing wrong with finding a profile (or buying) and having it provide what you want. Of course, as no actual recording of a guitar doesn’t get some treatment during the mix process, neither do the tracks recorded from the Kemper. I’m not sure why anyone would think that finding a profile that works and using it is “lazy.” Just put that time into a better performance or more time crafting your part.


    Of course, that said, if the spirit moves me, I’ll find a profile I like and then tweak the hell out of it until it’s something interesting and somewhat unrecognizable from the original. There are no rules. I’m the king of my profiler.

    Authenticity is an interesting one...I used to have a JCM800 and I've always said its the best amp I ever had....until I go back and listen to one now....some of the JCM800 profiles are pretty authentic but I don;t like that sound anymore...


    So some rose tinting also goes into this complex mix.


    I don;t like tweaking, I just find I make it worse and go "profile" deaf. I have spend some time tweaking and then gone back to the original and realise that sounded better...


    I just need help...

    Quote from V8guitar

    I don;t like tweaking, I just find I make it worse and go "profile" deaf. I have spend some time tweaking and then gone back to the original and realise that sounded better...

    Yeah, that's been my delight with the Kemper because that's what happens when I try to tweak tones on an amp, too. Sure, I can do a minor tweak on a profile if it's not quite right for the given guitar / song but thus far, at least for my needs, those have been tiny adjustments. I find it helps if you cook with the right ingredients, and the profiles I have for the most part just don't need any seasoning.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    Just had a chance to try those two profiles AJ. I'm not a metal head but I love those. I agree C sounds more polished but D is more "natural" for want of a better word. They both sound great to me but I can see how C would sit better in a mix. My first impression was that C just sounded better because it was louder but when I knocked the 2.6db volume boost in the Amp block off it still sounded way tighter and more polished. Great work!


    Thanks for the kind words. C is a tweaked profile, D is not tweaked at all. I don't have great mics or a special room, but since I'm close micing, a 57 is pretty much all that's required.


    The kicker is that even if you find your profile is missing something, you can use the excellent "deep" controls to make the sound more suitable. I didn't even like C when I profiled it, it was a really bad profile, but I tweaked a tonne of stuff in the amp and cab sections. That made the profile suddenly pop out and I can definitely see it being used in some situations.


    With D, I was trying to get that sound by just profiling. No tweaks whatsoever. It's by no means perfect though: I'm positive with some gentle tweaking, it can be made to sound "brootal".



    I honestly think that if a profile fits a requirement, there's no reason to mess with it. In that respect, when it comes to playing live, I am not averse to using profiles crafted by a professional, since these will usually translate well across multiple sources (your cabinets, the PA, etc).


    When it comes to recordings though, I think you will find that often, the sound you hear when you are just jamming is not the sound you hear recorded in your DAW.


    It's really weird. I'll think a profile is excellent and record it and when I do, I'm like "What the hell happened?" It sounds so two-dimensional and flat, whereas when I was playing it, it sounded 3D and fat.


    In such a situation, don't be afraid to address problem areas with the profile you thought had potential. Use low shift to increase the resonance at lower frequencies. Use tube shape and tube shape to give the amp more of a lively feeling with your guitar and pickups. Don't go by the premise that definition at 10 is better, sometimes by lowering it, you get more of an organic feel that isn't like a razor on the recording.


    Once you are done tweaking, save as a snapshot. Then A/B. If you feel there are some things better about the original profile, go back and tweak some more, save and compare again. Do this multiple times.


    I swear, the more I treat the Profiling section of the Profiler as one part of my workflow in the studio and the tweaking as a modeller as the second part, I find there's just so much more scope to coax the tones I want out of the magical box.