How to "normalize" volume for live set?

  • Hm...not sure I understand what exactly you're trying to achieve, but the KPA's output volumes are global. Once dialed in you're done for the particular location.

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

  • I note that the OP has stated that he's managed to achieve what he wanted by levelling the volumes within the rigs. I'm happy to see that the forum has helped him in his search for success.


    Regarding an output limiter/leveller, I think that this isn't as productive as you'd imagine. Who would use clean, rhythm and lead tones for a whole set at the same volume? You'd end up switching it off for certain rigs and that's achieving something already possible.


    If all the profiles in existence came from Kemper, then you could argue that they should be comparable but when you're filling up the box with profiles from various profilers, it's not possible. I've got a bunch of TAF profiles that have a post amp EQ block that does little but have an output boost. I've found other profiles where the volume in the Amplifier section is on 3db. It all adds up to unpredictable levels when trying new profiles but which is easy to fix already.


    I've got my main rhythm tone which is the bench mark for my volumes. Leads usually a little louder and cleans as required. If I find a profile that I want to use with my band, I'll compare it to that main rhythm tone and achieve the desired volume. It's likely that I'll tweak the volume knob and hit save when I try it with the band and then it's done.

  • Using peak meters in a DAW can lead to very unreliable results due to compression and frequency response. As already mentioned clean sounds have much wider dynamic range than distortion sounds (i.e. distortion is a form of compression). Also we hear frequencies differently at different volume levels so setting sounds that have the same “level” doesn’t mean they will have the same “loudness”.


    A better solution is to use a LUFS or “loudness” meter which tries to adjust for this frequency content. It is better than simple peak metering but is still. Long way from perfect. I gave up on the LUFS meter idea pretty quickly too.


    At the end of the day there really is no substitute for using our ears to balance levels in the context of the band and venue. While a self levelling, band and venue agnostic algorithm sounds like utopia in theory it’s never going to happen.

  • I’m currently using seven Performances. I have the rigs balanced to each other, and adjust the Master Volume for different venues.

    That’s the way how to do it.

    And as a starting point I recommend leveling any of your own rigs against any factory rig because they are already leveled.

  • That doesn't necessarily lead to a consistent Sound at any Overall-sound-Level. It is necessary to adjust frequencies.

    Maybe it is more obvious in a three Piece band.

    But the Sound differences are substantial hearable at different Overall Levels.

  • Yes, but this is Fletcher-Munson and has nothing to do with the KPA. No device on earth can compensate that automatically. If you need to adjust frequencies the ouput EQ is global too.

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

  • IMHO there's no reliable way in normalizing rig volumes automatically. It all has to do with the way the human ear is perceiving frequencies and volume. That's why even different normalized audio files can be perceived in different volumes. Regarding guitar sounds there's even another trap: Clean sounds tend to have a loud peak in the attack phase, while the sustain phase is often a lot quieter. Distorted tones are more even in this regard. Normalizing clean and distorted tones automatically can therefore lead to uneven perceived volumes.


    That doesn't necessarily lead to a consistent Sound at any Overall-sound-Level. It is necessary to adjust frequencies.

    Maybe it is more obvious in a three Piece band.

    But the Sound differences are substantial hearable at different Overall Levels.

    Like Guitarmaniac has stated before, a consistent sound at ANY sound level will never be achievable due to the Fletcher- Munson- curves.

    Certain frequencies most likely will need to be adjusted at sound levels above or below 85-95 dB (where the FM curve is the most flat).

    Bass and treble content is most vulnerable to a wrong dial in due to neglecting FM curves by the way.

    Edit: Guitarmaniac beat me to it. ;)

  • That doesn't necessarily lead to a consistent Sound at any Overall-sound-Level. It is necessary to adjust frequencies.

    Maybe it is more obvious in a three Piece band.

    But the Sound differences are substantial hearable at different Overall Levels.

    Have you considered adjusting the output EQ to suit at each venue/capacity?


    I understand that without a FOH engineer, trying to sound consistent throughout the set from soundcheck is incredibly difficult, regardless of your gear. Usually because the drummer decides to play way louder after a couple of songs, which doesn't usually effect the bass player who can just pick harder and sound louder. Guitars are way less dynamic. I'm in a three piece band and meant respectfully, I don't really understand what you are trying to resolve.


    Is it that bass and treble frequencies are very different at different volume levels?

  • This is an issue that needs constant attention for me, even after many years of doing this professionally. It all depends on the instrument, environment, type of ensemble, specific song, etc and simply leveling everything at the same Dbs is useless and will not yield a balanced volume all the time - hence why your feature requests won't work: the volume of every patch needs to take into account the context in which it is used.


    I have one performance of 5 profiles at different gain levels that I know works well and I use it as a reference for when I import a new rig. When I create a new performance, I try to match the volume of the new profiles to the ones of my reference performance according to their respective gain level. Also, I want to always be able to adjust in real time by cutting/boosting 2-3-4 dbs with a volume pedal/a boost/morph, etc.

  • I plug my guitar rig into my DAW and get the level up on the first slot/performance so it's at around -4 on the meters. Where it's actually at doesn't actually matter as long as the signal is decent - it's just a reference point- I then go through the rest of the slots in the rest of the performances and get them to around the same place- boosting / cutting as appropriate for the song.

    I tried the DAW approach, and my own ears (which comes out much better, but way too loud), but I like Ingolf 's approach, makes the most sense. I'm going to re-do all my performances after tonight's show. =O Should be a busy weekend!

    Gary ô¿ô

    Edited once, last by prsgary ().

  • For me and my band a consecutive Problem occurs, since we don't have a technician for FoH-Mixing (we do this by ourselves during the soundcheck). When later the crowd is in the Pub the dialed in Sound of the soundcheck mostly suffers.

    Sometimes I get the Feedback that my guitar sounded dull and thin, sometimes they Hype my Sound (mostly when I could have played louder).

    I certainly understand your frustration but the problem, as you've adequately described above, really isn't the Kemper. When more humans fill the room, it's not going to affect just the guitar. It alters the entire mix. Even if they added the features you want for your amp, your singers, the drummer and even the bass player would still be screwed.


    While the realities of low paying gigs is that people often can't afford to hire a sound man, doing a fire and forget soundcheck at the beginning of the night almost guarantees you're not going to be sounding great by the end of the night.


    There are two problems to overcome when running sound from the stage. First, someone has to be available to turn the knobs in the first place, which isn't always easy in the middle of a set. Second, even if someone has time to tweak the sound, you're flying blind from the stage - you have to hear it from out in the room.


    While there's no technology (Kemper or otherwise) that will solve these problems, there are options that might help. It's common now for digital mixers to have companion iPad apps. As an example, my Yamaha TF5 has an app called Stage Mix that brings up all mixer features on an iPad. You could mix an entire show just sitting at the bar with one of these things. I'm pretty sure there are other brands that do this sort of thing as well.


    If you can't afford to hire a sound man, if you had a mobile app like this then maybe there's a song here and there where one of the band members could sit the number out, roam the room with the iPad, and adjust the sound according to the crowd. This would mean buying a mixer that supported these features, but to solve this problem you're going to have to spend money one way or the other.


    Of course, the best solution would be for everyone in the band to take a bit less money and hire a professional sound man. If you can't make that happen, the only real solution is to find a way for someone to periodically get out in the room and adjust the sound accordingly.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10


  • Agreed. Technology can get you almost all the way there, if you plan ahead. There is no magic bullet, but you can certainly sight the gun and range the target.


    We use an Behringer X32. We've used it as a stagebox, monitor worlds and I've done many shows where I self mix. The *trick* is in getting your levels right, so I spend special attention to my kemper levels.

    The behringer mixers are GREAT - and if equipped well, they can make a WORLD of difference if you're self mixing.

    Our X32 has the X-Live card installed. This is a combination USB interface + SD card 32 track recorder. We track (almost) every rehearsal. With this installed I'm able to do a virtual sound check, adjust eq and levels and make sure everything sounds perfect right out of the box *without the band there*. The X32 is a mixer AND 32 track recording box, all in one.


    The X32 is also connected over wifi, so I can roam the venue with the virtual soundcheck running and adjust the mix (to get it 98% of the way there). The band can also mix their own monitor busses.

    Again, getting your levels right at the start is the key.... and I'm about to go back into my studio and fix some things right now :)


    Because with the tech, I totally can.


    KPA Unpowered Rack, Kemper Remote, Headrush FRFR108s, BC Rich Mockingbird(s), and a nasty attitude.

  • Our X32 has the X-Live card installed. This is a combination USB interface + SD card 32 track recorder. We track (almost) every rehearsal. With this installed I'm able to do a virtual sound check, adjust eq and levels and make sure everything sounds perfect right out of the box *without the band there*. The X32 is a mixer AND 32 track recording box, all in one.

    Great point, I'd completely forgotten about that kind of feature. The ability to do virtual sound checks like that is another invaluable tool in the bag.


    The X32 has been hugely popular. I forget the name, but PreSonus also has a comparable digital mixer at the same price point and if memory serves, they also offer the recording and mobile app features.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • Thanx guys for your replies and help.

    We've been using an XAir18 controlled by our I-Pads for 2 years now but it's got no track-recorder. For this reason we have to dial in a dedicated Sound for each venue (of course beginning at some "show-presets").


    And each time I have to Level the Profiler newly, because between gigs f.e. at home or in rehearsals I'm using different volume-levels.


    This Problem would be None, if it was possible to make Output-Presets with volume-levels included.

  • Yes, but this is Fletcher-Munson and has nothing to do with the KPA. No device on earth can compensate that automatically. If you need to adjust frequencies the ouput EQ is global too.

    You're right: Fletcher Munson compensation cannot be done automatically. But it could be compensated by yourself by making output-presets with different EQ-Settings for dedicated Output-Levels - if These were storable.