Poll: Ethics of profiling using Impulse Responses

I know people are already doing this, so it’s a moot point. Bommel was saying in another thread That he profiles using a Two Notes Torpedo. In that sense, the Two Notes has a proprietary IR format. Would using these be less bad than a static IR?

Also, just by virtue of the way my loadbox interacts with the IR, the resultant cabinet section is nothing like the original cabinet. Also add the fact that the Kemper’s own cabinet section responds better than an IR after you create it. And it is also possible to blend multiple IRs to create a unique cabinet that desn’t exist in the real world.

Reading the T&C of many IR makers as well, it doesn’t appear to bar the use of the IRs for this purpose. So it is not illegal.

What I am trying to find out is if there is a mortal hazard to any of this. After all, guys are pirating commercial profiles and people buy them too, obviously. This doesn’t seem as bad as piracy *to me*, but I wouldn’t want to pass off others’ work as my own.

In that respect, would full disclosure suffice? Investors seen a few profiles created using IRs that have been well received, such as:

Friedman Butterslax profiles

These were well-regarded profiles, but it appears the user just smacked commercial IRs into the cabinet section using cab maker.. I think.

When I found out, I deleted the profiles on my own machine, but other users obviously didn’t see fit to.

So that just makes me feel really conflicted about whether I am just being too obtuse about this whole thing.

Quote from Wheresthedug

AJ it’s an interesting ethical dilemma but I can’t really see the purpose.

Why would you want to create and distribute studio profile with an IR baked in? That effectively limits the flexibility compared to just sharing a direct profile.

You mentioned the interaction between the Loadbox and IR. As far as I am aware there is absolutely no interaction between the Loadbox an IR. There is an interaction between the Loadbox and Amp’s power section but that is captured independently of the IR being used.

It seems to me that what you are effectively suggesting is just making new IRs to distribute with your Kemper profiles. If you remove the Kemper from the equation would it change your ethical view? I don’t know the answer to that just putting out some more food for thought.

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Yes, pardon me, the interaction between the amp's power section and the load box is what I meant. So that removes one more factor in favour of using commercial IRs and profiling.

The thing is, I don't have an ethical viewpoint on the process per se. I do it at home with really good results. But I don't share those profiles because I'm using someone else's commercial IRs.

Now as far as removing the Kemper from the equation, that really doesn't make a difference, as I can run my amps into my loadbox and into the IRs in my computer. There is no moral predicament there, because I paid for the IRs and the terms of use specifically state that I can use it for my own inscrutable purposes.

In fact, I would prefer to do that, because the profiling process is very unpredictable when using a dummy load instead of a speaker cab and is not recommended.

That said, did you check that other thread that I posted a couple of posts back? The results of using an Ownhammer IR really shone through in that case.

Another thing: I think that importing an IR as a Kemper cabinet and using that as an "IR loader" is far superior to running into your computer, because the Kemper has a more dynamic algorithm than the static IR.

Personally, I have no horse in this race. I just saw another post where Bommel said he uses a Torpedo Studio to profile and it is fine by me. I don't think the use of IRs is unethical or ethical, which is why I started this thread because I'm curious to know what other people think. In the case of those free Butterslax profiles with commercial IRs baked in, there was a lot of interest and 37 likes.

Let's look at it another way. Is using a free IR to profile unethical? I would think not, but then someone else might think it is cheating people who have an expectation of a real cabinet being profiled with a mic. Going further, is a commercial IR unethical to profile because someone was charging money for it?

And on that subject, some profilers use the same cabinet for ALL of their profiles. Is that ethical?

I'm just curious to know. Like I said, no horse in this race. That said, I suspect a lot of people who take very strong positions on this didn't shy away from those Butterslax profiles like I did after finding out why they sounded so good

Here, have a couple of free profiles I created (Engl Savage 120 into Emperor 4x12 loaded with Eminence Governors and miced with an E906 and SM57). One is high gain, the other is medium gain. Just look for Indian Savage I and J on the Rig Exchange

Quote from Ibot39

There is a commercial seller that just copies his (own and converted) IR to direct amp profiles on most of the packs and sells this as Kemper rigs without making it clear. Again, no Kemper cab, but converted IR. Noone seems to notice this or cares. Another one does this with a few special packs.

Others sell merged rigs that are not really merged, but only different direct amp profiles with the same cabs just copied.

I know, what you mean. I have heard the same thing about some profilers as well.

Quote from Bommel

Well I mainly make D.I. profiles and use the torpedo live mainly as a load. Most of my profiles are without a cab.

Most IRs i load into the torpedo are also mine, linearized, EQed and dialed to my taste using the blend ir program of Twonotes and a hardware eq after the torpedo (Alesis PEQ450).

If you would like to make make profiles using a two notes product you can try/have my mine i really don't care what people do with them. nightlight https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7q9…OQ3mm15xW3nIlLqsuNfa?dl=0 just add a eq that fits you taste so that is not a total copy of mine i hope this solves your moral dilemma.

Thanks for the offer and apologies if it seemed like I was finger-pointingat you, Bommel. That’s not the intention, as I said, I don’t have a viewpoint on it being ethical or unethical.

Thanks for the IRs, I’ll be sure to check them out.

To everyone involved in this thread:

The intention of this thread isn’t “Why can’t I use commercial IRs for profiling”, more along the lines of “Is it ethical or unethical to do so”. There are clearly people on both sides of the fence on this. What’s also clear is that it is happening even now.

Quote from Chris Duncan

True, although typically with commercial libraries the licenses explicitly allow you to sell / distribute software you created using their libraries, since that was the point of buying the library in the first place. You just can't distribute the library / source code itself.

Beyond the general fun of the thought experiment, I believe this is the practical application. If you want to use someone's stuff, and want to be sure you don't get a call from their lawyer, contact them.

And remember, it doesn't matter who's actually right or wrong - the moment someone initiates legal action, you're spending money on a lawyer of your own to defend yourself. Even if the end of the court case declares the other party has to pay your legal expenses, the case itself can drag on forever and you're out of pocket that whole time. Also, just because someone gets a judgement against them, it doesn't mean they'll actually pay you in a timely manner (or at all).

The best way to avoid problems is to effectively anticipate where trouble will occur, and then be somewhere else.

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Well, going by the example I posted of the Butterslax profile, it looks like that has already happened. But I haven’t heard of commercial profilers chasing after people selling their profiles online, let alone IR makers chasing people for using their stuff on a song.

I’m curious to know what dictates fair usage. Which is why I stated in the OP, I am not looking at Tom, Dick and Harry’s views, I was hoping some commercial profile users who also offer IRS, or maybe Kemper Amps, could clarify.

As I mentioned in the OP, if I blend two or more IRs and create a new IR, is it now mine? What if I profile the multiple IR created using different vendors’ IRs?

Going further, if I have three profilers and profile a combination of two profiles using the third, is the third profile now mine? Or does it default to the creator(s)? If so, why?

I mean, after all, if you can profile an Axe FX or Helix and claim the tones as your own, why can you not do that if you profile a Kemper profile, maybe after tailoring some part of the EQ, for argument’s sake, if not at all.

Again, the mistaken assumption that I am trying to justify sharing something created using commercial IRs has no basis. This is a philosophical discussion. Honestly, if amp makers cannot sue Kemper Amps for stealing a sound, an IR maker cannot sue someone for using the tools bought from them to create new sounds which are nothing like the product used to create it.

On the other hand, what is true is that people are already doing so, and there are also people selling profiles created using IRs. And there are even a larger number of people who are obviously buying or downloading these profiles and using them.

So please don’t point the finger at me, guys! I am just looking to hear your views.

I just realised there was something quite interesting I said in my last post when it came to profiling the Axe FX and Helix.

Isn’t it freaky that those things use IRs?

I like Bommel’s idea of tweaking the EQ, etc, to ensure that it’s not the same as just creating a cabinet using an IR in Cab Maker.

At the same time, what if I run the whole thing through a preamp like a Neve or an API? Does that materially change the situation?

Just hypothetical stuff, guys. Personally, I do not think I will share anything I create with IRs. My reputation already suffers immensely from these kinds of controversial threads

But at the same time, I don’t think I will have a vehement reaction to someone using them, as long as they are not lifting them outright.

Of course, the whole thing is a slippery slope. To me, the real genie that has been let out of the bottle is the Kemper and it’s profiling method.

I have an idea for Kemper Amps and Mr ckemper . We have already seen that the Kemper can replicate studio gear. Maybe a unit that can profile multiple bits in a chain and then use that to create a studio signal? Like eight Kempers in one. It’ll be frightfully expensive, but can save a lot of old studio gear. Compressors, EQs, preamps, the works.

If you create something like that, I just ask that you name it the Arvind Replicator