Delay Tails

    Well, it's the removal of the amp envelope that's applied to the tail, or at least the application of an all-on one, so in theory it shouldn't require a new engine or anything near that - just the addition of the envelope to the code and a parameter choice to disable the standard fade... IMHO.


    If an amp envelope isn't employed and instead the KPA subtracts a level value from each repeat, the temporary suspension of this action will be all that's necessary, and again, along with the addition of a parameter allowing for fades to be bypassed.


    As for the number of repeats, obviously that'd be determined by the algorithm used; we'd have to choose from the various number of taps available.

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    Burkhard the way I read it the OP actually wants to dial in a specific number of consistent level repeats. Say 4 repeats with no (or virtually no fade away) then stop the repeats. That’s potentially a new delay engine or a new function on existing ones.

    Up to four repeats without sound degradation and without fade away followed by a stop could be achieved using the Quad Delay: Feedback 0%, Low Cut at minimum, High Cut at maximum, Note Values/Delay Ratio as needed, Volumes 1-4 as needed, Panorama 1-4 as needed, no Modulation and Flutter.


    I think, we are guessing, what is really the expectation.

    Quote from caldo777

    It seems even after trying all these suggestions it's a difficult if not impossible thing to achieve. The rhythm delay with zero feedback gets closest but then it cuts off after 4 repeats which is impractical.


    Quote from Wheresthedug

    Burkhard you are correct - we’re guessing :)


    I only used 4 repeats as an example though. If the number was 5 or 6 or 7 etc we would be out of luck with the Quad delay.

    The OP has already stated that 4 repeats won't do it. It might be an idea for the OP to state how many taps he needs.

    Thanks for the suggestions and help everyone.


    I made some examples so you can better understand what I'm getting at.


    This is the kind of delay sound I'm trying to replicate:


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/t617…un4h/Example%201.wav?dl=0


    And here is my attempt, as you can hear the delay in the first stands out much clearer throughout the repeats whereas the Kemper delay fades out after a few repetitions. It actually goes on for a lot longer than it seems from listening to this clip but it gets lost.


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/sg5x…ad9y/Example%202.wav?dl=0

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Well, it's the removal of the amp envelope that's applied to the tail, or at least the application of an all-on one, so in theory it shouldn't require a new engine or anything near that - just the addition of the envelope to the code and a parameter choice to disable the standard fade... IMHO.


    If an amp envelope isn't employed and instead the KPA subtracts a level value from each repeat, the temporary suspension of this action will be all that's necessary, and again, along with the addition of a parameter allowing for fades to be bypassed.


    As for the number of repeats, obviously that'd be determined by the algorithm used; we'd have to choose from the various number of taps available.

    This is what I was looking for, an option to disable the fade. As it seems like such an obvious and simple thing to have I thought it must be there but maybe it was hidden away in another menu. It looks like my assumption was incorrect unfortunately.


    The dissapearing repeats are remedied somewhat by placing the delay before the Amp block but they are still there and have the effect of turning distorted repeats into clean repeats as the fade gets stronger.

    This is a very, very basic delay. You seem to make a simple thing very complicated.


    The level of "clearness" is determined by parameters like Low Cut, High Cut, Flutter, Grit and others. Don't limit the frequency range of the delays.

    And the degree of fading out is determined by Feedback. Increase Feedback. You reference delay is also fading out, just slower.

    Quote from Burkhard

    This is a very, very basic delay. You seem to make a simple thing very complicated.


    The level of "clearness" is determined by parameters like Low Cut, High Cut, Flutter, Grit and others. Don't limit the frequency range of the delays.

    And the degree of fading out is determined by Feedback. Increase Feedback. You reference delay is also fading out, just slower.

    I know it's very simple, at least it seemed that way until I tried to achieve it. The way the kemper enforces delay fades makes it complicated.


    The is no high cut at all at that setting and increasing the feedback leads to a bunch up of unwanted notes. The feedback length at this setting is producing no less than 13 repeats!

    The possibility to adjust the frequency range and the feedback is common in the world of delays. In your attempt you had less repeats compared to the intended original. I don't understand, why you have too many now and cannot get below 13 repeats.


    Let's get back to basics:


    Which delay type did you use and what were all its parameter settings for the attempt you recorded? Please go through all the pages of delay parameters and send a list.

    I am aware of the common characteristics of delay units.


    In my attempt I actually have more repeats it's just that they are being masked by the dry signal ( I have 100 / 94 % wet/dry) any more and the initial dry signal is unbalanced.


    The reason there are so many repeats is to try and make the fade out slower so that you can hear them through the dry signal. I can get below 13 repeats but that just makes the fade curve quicker. Now dare I say it you might see where there is a fundamental flaw in the way this is set up. I turn the feedback up to hear more of the repeats before they become too quiet to cut through. This results in many more repeats than I actually want or need but I get to hear more of them, however in passages with different spacing between played notes this is impractical as the notes build up on top of each other when there is clear space to hear it. Not to mention that even at this number of repeats I still cant hear more than the first 4 cut through.


    I'm using Dual Delay as I wanted the extra functionality of the "swell" and "smear" parameters although they are both set to 0% as they weren't helping.


    So:


    Dual delay

    Mix: 100/94 %

    Note Value 1: 1/4

    Note Value 2: 1 Bar (although this is irrelevant as its inaudible)

    Delay Balance: -50%

    Feedback: 90%

    Low Cut: 160hz

    High Cut: 33488hz

    Reverse Mix: 0%

    Stereo: 0%

    Chorus: 0%

    Cross Feedback: 0%

    Modulation: 0.0

    Flutter Intensity: 1.7

    Flutter Rate: 1.4

    Grit: 1.8

    Swell: 0%

    Smear: 0%

    Ducking: 0.0

    According to its curve the reference delay you have sent is also fading out.


    Have you tried to increase Mix even more e. g. to 100/70% and lower feedback? And do you need Flutter and Grit?

    I did try increasing the mix even more but it starts to attenuate the dry signal making the unaffected notes weak which affects the phrasing of the part in an undesirable way.


    As for the flutter and grit; I don't need them but it makes very little difference if I turn them off all together as far as the clarity is concerned. The grit might actually help a little.


    I think the nearest I'm gonna get to the reference is to back off the gain a bit so the distortion isn't washing the repeats out as much.


    When I started this thread I was simply wondering if I was missing something. It wasn't to complain or anything like that. I appreciate the suggestions however and I think that what Monkey_Man was saying in an earlier post would bring some handy functionality to the delays that is otherwise difficult to control through the other parameters alone.


    Thanks.

    Hi Caldo


    I'm no delay guru but I do love a challenge :S


    I've been playing around with it. I downloaded your clip into Transcribe! to let me isolate sections of it and loop them for comparison. How did you make the first sample? Was it another pedal or rack unit you have already? It actually sounds very tape delay like rather than digital.


    This may sound counter intuitive but try using the Cut More button in conjunction with even higher feedback but lower Mix level.


    I was messing around with Single Delay for simplicity but you might get even better results with some of the more complex algorithms.


    I won't claim these settings sound exactly like your first sample but it does seem to make the delay tails stand out for longer than your second version. I get about 13 repeats too by the way..


    Single delay


    Mix Pre

    Mix around 80% give or take a little depending on tempo/sound/taste/etc I actually got down as low as 60% and still had quite nice results

    Note Value 1/4

    Feedback 85%

    Reverse Mix 0%Cut More ticked

    Low Cut 140hz approx

    High Cut 6500hz approx

    Stereo 100

    Chorus 0

    Modulation 0

    Flutter Intensity 2.5

    Flutter Rate 2.5

    Grit 0

    Ducking 0


    I like it even better with a hall reverb in Parallel too adding a bit more depth.


    Is that any closer?

    Hi Wheresthedug


    First off, thanks for taking the time and effort to give that a go. I appreciate it.


    The original clip is a file that was sent to me to learn by someone I'm going to be working with. I know he uses Logic and makes use of the amp sims that come as part of that so I'm assuming the delay is some kind of plugin too although I can't rule out an analogue pedal. I will ask him.


    I will give your settings a go tomorrow when I get a chance. One thing I cant really have is stereo set to 100 as I'm going to be going mono to a cab. Saying that I'm not entirely sure how that setting works with the single delay effect or how it would sound going into a single mono cab. The clip I posted however is just the spdif out into my DAW.


    I'll let you know how I get on.

    The 100% Stereo setting shouldn't matter with Single Delay. It means delays are panned hard left and right but as they aren't panning back and forth it shouldn't make much difference. You can set the Stereo level to 0 for a straight down the middle effect. If you select Master Mono for your output it will sum any stereo effects to mono anyway. However, having the stereo set to 100 helps separate the delay from the dry signal a bit. Your clip seems to be in stereo at the moment I think.You might need to tweak the mix and/or feedback a bit to get the same separation in mono.


    Good luck.

    The play it is played on the first exemple is different than the second (forget the delay I just talk about the way its played (before the delay) its played differently on the first exemple and THATS WHY the delay reaction is different. I man the number of plucked notes is different... So listen carefully youll get my point Good luck

    Quote from Gforce guitar

    The play it is played on the first exemple is different than the second (forget the delay I just talk about the way its played (before the delay) its played differently on the first exemple and THATS WHY the delay reaction is different. I man the number of plucked notes is different... So listen carefully youll get my point Good luck

    No it's not. I don't know what you're hearing but it's not. Even if that were the case, it's definitely not the reason the delay tails aren't as prominent through the dry signal as I'd like.

    There's too much gain on the second example, compressing the signal and adding sustain, and not enough attack on the dry sound, which will mask the delay tails. It's also muddier, which will also not help.

    Agreed Sam. I tried experimenting with some delay settings last night using the ACE JCM800 High profile which was probably too gained up too but was quite bright. The tails did get a little masked by the gain but they still stood out a lot more than in Caldo's 2nd example. I think a combination of lower gain, slightly brighter tone and some tweaks to the delay itself should get in the right ball park.