An unfortunate FRFR user looking for help

  • I bought a Mission FRFR. Used it at 2 rehearsals and then sold it. I wanted to love it, but i'm a real guitar cab guy on stage. Its OK not like FRFRs, even if everyone here will talk behind your back..

    I won't.

    I use FRFR but it's subjective, so go with what you love buddy!

  • Amazing that a user thinks, he has to affirm that his BlueAmps FRFR is great. I'm sure he's happy with his FRFR and I'm happy for him, even if it's a different model. But what does this have to do with this post? Does that help to solve that specific problem? No! This is more like, "Look, there are enough users here that are happy, what you are telling is impossible." Too bad that the manufacturer supports this post.

    It is not my intention to make a product bad. Actually, I just wanted to avoid that. That's why I did not want to mention the exact model name at the beginning.

  • I hear what you are saying. It is a difficult balance between not naming the product to avoid any offence and supplying enough relevant information to let others understand the problem fully and offer specific help.


    I hope you manage to get a solution that is right for you. There is nothing wrong with doing things differently from the crowd if it gives you the results you want. We wouldn’t have rock music if certain bands in the 6’s and 70’s hadn’t pushed amps and recording technology beyond what they were designed for and what the sound “engineers” said was acceptable. And we wouldn’t have the Kemper if CK had decided everyone else was right to try and model amps at the component level.

  • ... I played the Kemper at home ...

    ... the monitor output is set to low values (<-20db ?) to be able to play at home ...


    Here's the problem (at least very likely).

    A FRFR cab or speaker is made for LOUD volumes and to achieve this there's a major difference between home stereo speakers and PA speakers. The surrounding (aka suspension) of the speaker cone is MUCH harder than in a home stereo speaker. If you tried on your home Hifi speaker to achieve the same sound pressure level a PA speaker can produce, the woofer cone would likely jump 20cm out of the chassis due to its soft surrounding. :D


    In other words, PA speakers (or guitar cabs) only come to life at a certain (quite high) volume. If you try to play at home levels, the hard/stiff cone suspension of the PA speaker will barely move and thus not create convincing low end oomph.


    I've said it many times, PA speakers aren't made for low volumes. They need to be fed some decent power to come alive. If you can't play loud at home, get different speakers (like near- or midfield studio monitors).

  • A FRFR cab or speaker is made for LOUD volumes

    Out of curiosity, what would you consider the threshold of loud to be?


    I typically average around 105 - 110 db, which is usually enough to keep up with a heavy handed rock drummer on stage (the audience is FOH's job).

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • I typically average around 105 - 110 db

    Of course this can be considered loud. You will not make many new friends if you play this loud in an apartment every day. :D

    But I'm sure 80dB would still be too little to make the PA speaker show its full potential. The exact spot where the PA speaker comes alive can easily be tested. Just play a guitar track or even mixed music and slowly up the volume. There will be the moment your mouth will open and say "WOOHOOOOOO". You just found the spot where the speaker opens up. :D In my experience this usually happens at around 95 - 100dB ... and stays impressive until around 115-120dB. More than that seriously harms and can't be considered pleasant anyway.

  • You will not make many new friends if you play this loud in an apartment every day. :D

    Depends on what kind of people your neighbors are. :)


    Fortunately, I built a house and studio in the suburban country north of Atlanta and the outside world is generally protected by four inches of concrete, although the local deer and coyotes couldn't be less impressed.

    But I'm sure 80dB would still be too little to make the PA speaker show its full potential.

    My level when mixing in the control room is around 85db to avoid ear fatigue, which isn't loud at all. Occasionally I'll turn it up to maybe 95 to feel how it thumps, but you can't do that for very long and retain perspective. Of course, a live band is a different thing, particularly with a live drummer, so that creates a different reality.


    One of the reasons I asked is that I just got a Yamaha DXR-10. I'd been running through a 1960a 4x12 with the stock V30s, but those speakers are also 20 years old and thus broken in where the Yamaha is brand new. Because I have the luxury of playing loud, I've been running the Yamaha at around 105 today as I'm looking at a potential band tomorrow and want to get used to it at volume. I thought I noticed that it started feeling a bit crisper and more defined at this level versus a lower volume that I can easily talk over, but I wasn't sure if I was just imagining things since it's a new piece of gear.

    until around 115-120dB. More than that seriously harms and can't be considered pleasant anyway.

    Personally, I'm hoping for a band where I can just point the Kemper to FOH and run IEMs. I love rock and roll, but I'm not suicidal. :)

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • Quote

    I hear what you are saying. It is a difficult balance between not naming the product to avoid any offence and supplying enough relevant information to let others understand the problem fully and offer specific help.

    Thank you, dear Wheresthedug, for the understanding words.

    Quote

    A FRFR cab or speaker is made for LOUD volumes...They need to be fed some decent power to come alive.

    That would mean that an acceptable sound only sets in when my ears are bleeding? A contradiction in itself ...

    But seriously: Maybe I did not research enough to know this limitation ("sounds when loud") before. On the other side I wasn't informed about it. Therefore I assumed that I can expect a good sound even at moderate volumes. Dear lightbox, if only I had a consultant like you...


    Does that (limited sound at low volumens) apply to the other brands as well, e.g. Friedman ASM-12 or others?

  • softmonaut

    Just do yourself the favour and touch the surrounding / suspension of your HiFi speakers with your finger to see how soft it is. It's like this for pretty much all HiFi and studio nearfield speakers. If you can compare this with PA speakers or guitar cab speakers you will immediately understand / feel the difference.

    As mentioned before, you will likely listen at around 85dB in the studio or living room to enjoy music, plus minus a few dB.

    For an electric guitar in a band context though, 85dB is way too little. That's why speakers for this purpose are constructed in a quite different way. You'll experience this with all PA speakers, some a little more, some a little less.

  • If you want to play guitar with a hifi stereo live on stage I think it will not work. No way you can keep up with the volume bass and drums will produce. In my studio I am using a mega Jeff Rowland model 8 amp (2x250 watts and lots of ampère) with Avalon ascent mk2 speakers. Perfect for music listening but not enough volume to keep up with drums and bass live. On my avatar you can see a part of the Avalon speaker.

  • Thank you, dear Wheresthedug, for the understanding words.

    That would mean that an acceptable sound only sets in when my ears are bleeding? A contradiction in itself ...

    But seriously: Maybe I did not research enough to know this limitation ("sounds when loud") before. On the other side I wasn't informed about it. Therefore I assumed that I can expect a good sound even at moderate volumes. Dear lightbox, if only I had a consultant like you...


    Does that (limited sound at low volumens) apply to the other brands as well, e.g. Friedman ASM-12 or others?

    It's a fundamental trade-off between power handling and low volume sensitivity.


    Like comfort vs performance in cars. You wouldn't want to use a comfortable family car in a rally or a great rally car as a family car.


    So you need to have speakers that suit your typical volume or just accept that they won't sound as good at low volume.

  • My god... Reading most of this is exactly like when someone running Windows has a simple problem and 100 people jump on board to explain 1000 things that will not solve the simple problem and actually create new problems.


    1. If you bought a new speaker setup and it doesn't sound right and you cannot resolve it simply and your ears haven't changed, ditch it an get something else.


    2. If you are thinking you have to add some new external hardware to your system to achieve something you already had previous, that is a fail.


    3. If you get advice that is not simple and obvious, that is a fail.


    4. Follow your ears. Accept less than perfection and make up the difference with your playing. Unless you want to do like we all did in the 80's and end up with $10k rack monsters that weigh 400lbs and have manuals with more pages of info than it takes to launch a rocket into orbit.


    The ultimate goal of any setup is to turn it on, start playing, and enjoy what you hear. If you get too deep into gear nonsense, you are a tweeker not a player.


    Bonus: If all else fails, buy a pro tube amp / speaker setup and enjoy. If that fails, quit guitar and play drums. If that doesn't work and you can't sing, sell all of your gear, move out to the country and become a farmer. :)

    Edited once, last by Nemo13 ().

  • That's a fail. How can simple, obvious advice be the only acceptable approach to life? I think you've summarized the conversation really poorly too.


    Someone that pays close attention to crafting their sound is a tweaker not a player? Binary.