Method to EQ PA speakers to match headphone EQ?

  • I've recently ditched my backline of 2 DXR10s and am now running the Kemper directly through our PA (via a Mackie DL806 digital mixer / PA).


    I have noticed that the sound is quite a lot different to the sound I'm getting via the headphones out on the Kemper, and know that - obviously - the speakers have a different response and curve compared to the headphones.

    However - can anyone suggest a way to EQ the PA so that it more closely matches what I hear in the headphones? The desk has an RTA that shows the frequencies etc. being used by the Kemper inputs on the desk, and I can of course apply an EQ to the inputs - but I'm not sure how to go about working out what to boost / cut to match the headphones.

    Any advice would be appreciated!

  • Are you going stereo or mono to the mixer? If mono that could be the main difference to headphones, which are stereo. Maybe there's not much to tweak because these are two totally different ways of listening to a guitar sound.

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

  • Ok, but still headphones are a different thing imho. And besides this: even if you come close to your headphone sound it can be totally unusable in a band context. My suggestion is to dial in a sound that fits the band sound. Tweak it at rehearsal level together with all the other instruments. The wish to come close to your headphone sound might lead you nowhere.

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

  • I feel ya, man. Love the tones coming outta my headphones - I haven’t found a way..,

  • The PA's response has to be tuned to the room pre-gig via pink noise and a 31-band EQ, for example.


    The idea that one can copy a headphone's response and make it work in a real-world context other than in an anechoic chamber is fanciful.


    Sorry to be a wet blanket, brother! :rolleyes: ;(


    EDIT:

    Welcome, rgfellow ! 8o

  • Interesting.... never knew about this approach!

    Of course, the DL806 desk doesn't have a pink noise generator, and neither does the Kemper.... just wondering if there's another way to do it. Could run it via the iPad input, but then I'd need some way to measure it... maybe using an app on another ipad / phone?

  • I can only speak for the "old days". These days they use RTA's to identify peaks / resonances, but once identified, they're still pulled back through graphic EQ's, be they built-in (desk, most-likely software) or outboard. You might need to use a laptop, decent interface with a mic pre, a mic and a spectral-display plugin if you want to go the visual route. Such plugins can be had for free, so this might prove more-affordable than you think.


    What we used to do was run the noise through the PA with the graphic set flat. We'd then boost each band, one-at-a-time, to see if it produced ringing (inordinate level compared to the same action on other graphic bands). We'd then pull offending bands back a few dB.


    Then we'd force the stage mic's into feedback one-by-one by cranking their gains and pull the feedback frequencies back a few dB also. This effectively provided more level headroom before feedback; a buffer zone, if you will, so the mic's could be cranked further if necessary.


    If you don't have pink noise (you could play a loop from a portable device), use music that sounds excellent and that you know well. Back in the day Rosanna was tops for this; its spectral readout was essentially a straight line with the perfect taper as it headed into the higher frequencies. This is "perfect" because spectral readouts are energy readings across the frequency spectrum, and the higher a frequency, the less energy it has / produces for the same perceptible level.


    Hopefully that made sense. It's been 30 years so I'm out-of-date-and-rusty... and practically-senile. :D


    PS:

    Having read what I've just written, it should be obvious just how absurd the endeavour of replicating a headphone's response through a PA in a typical room is. There're simply too many "interferences", such as room modes / hot spots, resonances, feedback from stage, crowd noise, reflections and whatnot, to allow one to freely tailor a PA to sound "ideal", which is pretty much what headphones are able to do. In case you wondered, yes, it's because none of these considerations (almost none - resonances and reflections are very-minor issues comparatively speaking) have anywhere near the weight / importance when it comes to designing headphones.


    I added this "PS" 'cause I wanted you to understand that I really wasn't being curt when I said it ain't gonna happen; I was just being honest with my POV. <3

  • Trimming a PA to match your kpa sounds/headphones....thats kinda the world upside down.

    Maybe you end up with a great sounding guitar..but how about the rest?


    Reference monitors are what “the world” is using. Audio engineers, mixers, digital instruments designers.

    As a rule of thumb PAs are (or should be) dialed towards the point that everything that works on referencemonitors....also works on the PA. Pink noise, or reference audiotracks are commonly used tools for that.


    So for you as a guitar player the mission is to dial your sounds on decent reference speakers, studio monitors, or headphones designed for that purpose.

    Basically you wanna make sure your sounds work ok on all commonly used audio systems, your hifi, car, pa, stage monitor., etc.

    you may need to tweak a little on the board at the gig, or for your stage sound, but If you have done it right, 1 tweak should get all your sounds in the “zone”.

  • Cheers guys, understood! I guess that's one of the dangers of the band not having a 'sound engineer' - we don't know what to do or how to get the best sound from the PA. The other two just leave it all up to me, so I'd be interested in trying the above methods.

    What I'm currently thinking is - use the iPad (that runs the DL806 Master Fader mixer app on to control the PA) to generate pink noise, and run that through the PA. Then use an RTA spectrum analyser app to see the rough EQ we're getting, and then use the Master Fader app to EQ the PA outputs so it's more flat.


    For the Kemper at home, I use a pair of Sony MDR-7506 Studio headphones. I was told these are good for reference level setting, but if there are better ones please let me know!

    EDIT: Just ordered a pair of 250 ohm DT 880 PRO's, as that seems to be the generally recommended set for the Kemper.

  • Lot of PA guys simply play an audiotrack they know really well, and is “trusted” for a good mix, and set their master eq,s on that by ear.

    Analysers are great tools...If you know what to look for..and what you want...else you gonna be looking at results that tell you nothing. Im not sure “flat” is the ultimate for a PA system tbh..

  • If you don't have pink noise (you could play a loop from a portable device), use music that sounds excellent and that you know well. Back in the day Rosanna was tops for this; its spectral readout was essentially a straight line with the perfect taper as it headed into the higher frequencies. This is "perfect" because spectral readouts are energy readings across the frequency spectrum, and the higher a frequency, the less energy it has / produces for the same perceptible level.

    In the old days our sound guy used to use RATM Killing In the Name as his PA test track. Fine in some pubs and clubs but got us in trouble in quite a few 5 star hotels when the " **** you I won't do what you tell me" kicked in=O