Re calibrate User Scale steps in Harmoniser

  • I know there was a thread fairly recently where someone proposed renaming the intervals in the user scale menu of the harmoniser. I think their proposal was to use note names instead of intervals but I remember thinking at the time it seemed a bit overkill probably a backward step for most users.


    However, I have just spent a fair bit of time trying to program a user scale and OMG it is unintuitive =O


    A real mind bender in fact.


    At the moment scale steps start at 0 and go to 11 (VERY ROCK 'n' ROLL but not exactly consistent with most music theory). This is totally bonkers for trying to figure out which scale step you are trying to harmonise. I am sure I would eventually get used to it with enough practice but surely it would be more sensible to just rename the scale steps 1 to 12 with one being the root as it is in traditional music theory. I love the harmoniser guys but I don't think you need to reinvent centuries of tradition to implement it ;)

  • It was me who proposed/requested the change and NOW you can see why.


    Custom scales in its current form does not invite the use of it, sadly.


    In many instances I still use my Eventide H8000 for the role simply because I can program it in minutes and know exactly what I'm doing every 'step' of the way .


    I've been waiting patiently for CK to appreciate my request and ideally you could toggle between both workflows but if not possible actual note names should be used. This will take the effect into the musical/professional world.


    Here's to continually hoping CK sees the light on this.

  • Yes, I am reading this.

    Are you guys talking about both chromatic shift and harmonic shift?

    Seems to be mixed up a bit.

    Hi Christoph - I'm talking specifically about User Scales (Custom Scales) where the user can create/choose the alternative notes.


    Thanks for chiming in ckemper


    'User Scales'
    The Harmonic Pitch effect can also be linked to one or two custom User Scales. These allow you to create custom harmonies to fit whatever musical style you require. From harmonic minor, to blues, to Hungarian Gypsy scales - anything is possible by programming the User Scales. As soon as you select “User Scale 1/2” as the interval for one of the two voices with Soft knob 1 or 2, you will be able to access their configuration pages via soft button 1 or 2. Over three display pages, you can select the pitch offset individually for the twelve chromatic steps of both User Scales. Remember to set the “Key” as desired, whenever you use them; the key represents the tonic, or the first step of the scale. User Scales are saved within the Rig, so you have the opportunity to use many different scales by using different Rigs. They are not part of any Harmonic Pitch Preset, but are stored as independent User Scale Presets - to do this, simply push the STORE BUTTON whilst editing one of them. The default User Scales are both blues scales - one major, and the other minor. These can be used to instantly harmonize a blues or rock scale with one or two voices. Since blues is often somewhere between major and minor, try both “Key” settings to find the best fit for the melody, and also your playing style.

  • numbers were chosen for creating user scales because user scales can be used in any key therefore note names would make no sense.

    We are considering to change the numbers to musical interval names (min/maj 3rd etc). What do you think of this approach?

  • numbers were chosen for creating user scales because user scales can be used in any key therefore note names would make no sense.

    We are considering to change the numbers to musical interval names (min/maj 3rd etc). What do you think of this approach?

    Kemper Support #1 - Thanks for the response however, actual note names are the only way to go to make it truly simple for 'everyone'.


    I HATE to say this and I do apologise upfront but Eventide chose notes for a serious and practical reason re their UI.


    Min/maj 3rd etc etc terminology suggests/says that the user has technical musical knowledge and in some cases of course they do, however a considerable number of players do not.


    Having note names fixes and removes ALL ambiguity and makes the workflow MUCH MUCH faster.


    It removes any guesses NOT using numbers and intervals, again making it far faster & more accurate.


    Any way you look at it a player will and should know the note names on their guitar/bass. This ensures note names being used by the UI WILL invite more use of it by players regardless what anyone says.

  • A note can be many things depending on the actual key the song you want to play is in. It could be the root, or a third or tritonus etc. Interval names are completely independent from any key and could therefore be used universally. When I think of harmonies I think of intervals first.

  • Purely from a visual point of view, I can see that numbers take up the least amount of space and would be easier on the eye ...

    (at least using my eyes !)


    I personally have no problem using the stepped interval approach, but would be happy with the theoretical approach, too.

    As long as it was clearly legible ....

  • A note can be many things depending on the actual key the song you want to play is in. It could be the root, or a third or tritonus etc. Interval names are completely independent from any key and could therefore be used universally. When I think of harmonies I think of intervals first.

    I believe you would be in the minority with it working for you easily.


    Are you able to look at the Eventide GUI as a point of reference?

    (I could send you screen shots of a H8000 re it's custom scales GUI & it would add context to my comments & request if you like?)


    At the end of the day it's all chromatics regarding notes & there are no 100% rules/formulas regarding their use creating unique harmony.


    You could choose the key which of course would be the root note as a point of reference for the custom scales however, any & all notes thereafter could/would be chromatics as far as the KPA is concerned and you would select any note to match/offset the one the KPA detected 'you' playing into it.


    Note names are the best & truest way to make custom scales in the most easiest, fastest & logical fashion unbridling any rules/formulas on the player.

  • I think the ability to toggle between musical intervals (maj 3rd/min 3rd etc) and note names would be the ultimate solution. Obviously noteames are key specific while intervals are key independent however if you are building unique user harmonies these may not conform to standard keys any way.


    In my case I would be able to work easily enough with musical intervals (certainly mich better than the current se mi tones starting at 0) however I can also see benefits from not names too.

  • maybe-however I believe that anybody who knows that they want to add an A on top of their F# in the key of D will know that this is a minor third. ;-)

    Please post your picture in this thread to illustrate your point.

    I'll post screenshots later today.


    Just to respond to something that seems a little odd.


    If you expect people to know the difference between major & minor 3rds,5ths,7ths etc etc... You would of course expect them to know the note names on their instrument. ;-);-);-)

  • hjscheffler - Hi again.


    Attached are 2 screens that show you the scale the user has created in the first screen and the second screen shows you the offset/harmony note that has been selected against the note E. (G plus G lower octave as this is a two note harmony scale that has been created.)


    As you can see, you can select the offset note plus you have the ability to select the cents which enables you to fine tune EVERY offset/Harmony note differently to the note you're playing in real time if you like. This gives a lot of realism to the harmony note when played as two guitarists are NEVER in tune together perfectly. Add to that you can delay EACH harmony note DIFFERENTLY as no two guitarists are perfectly in time with each other. Effectively you have the closest thing to another guitarist playing in realtime with you when you use the custom scales option.