A Kemper VST from Overloud ?

  • This THU update actually includes a feature I suggested, I'm proud to say, and Steven agreed it was a great idea, saying "You should take the credit! It’s a great idea!" Here:


    Make an SM57 the default mic for all TH-U and OwnHammer cabs. :saint:


    Previously, the AKG C414 was the default, and whilst it's a great mic, I figured most peeps would feel the need to swap it for a '57 or something else "warmer" / less-accurate / with more mojo most of the time, meaning that there was an avoidable, unnecessary step involved when browsing in most situations.


    As for the "Rigs", one cannot deny their accuracy IMHO.

  • Ha! I had to laugh. This is the first promo video I've watched apart from Steven's one that Damian just posted, and only 'cause I received it via email, and whaddayaknow? The first thing the dude did after selecting the amp model for the demonstration was... to swap the 414 for the SM57 mic! :D


    I have to say I'm proud that the suggestion was implemented, not least because I've never even seen the plugin IRL. :huh:


    Here's the vid anyway; it was made a week before the latest update:



  • Accurate? The tones were horrible, Nicky. It's like they dumbed down the real miced amp just so their technology would be 1:1.


    I mean, seriously? That was a modded JCM800? Modded by who?


    Kemper tones are far more organic. I was gritting my teeth imagining how horrible those sounds must feel to play.


    Just listening to those A/B comparisons convinced me that their claims of replicating the profiling technology are hollow.

  • I specifically said that they were accurate, Brother AJ, meaning that they were for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the source amps; very-close at least.


    The subjective quality of any source amp in a "Profiling" comparison is irrelevant; it's about the accuracy of reproduction and nothing else. You've (probably unintentionally) created a straw man, brother. ;)


    FWIMBW, I'm not, nor have I ever, made any sort of judgement about how the plugin compares with the Kemper; I haven't even used the software yet. I simply responded in Christophe's thread 'cause of the preset update and new vids.

  • For me the Champ was the worst example(Champ) (very different examples in terms of sound brakeup ) but it is spot on according to Steven.

    This is a common trick . When something sounds wrong, you should say a lot at the moment that it's perfect. The viewer's attention is distracted at this point from listening to the source.

  • I

    For me the Champ was the worst example(Champ) (very different examples in terms of sound brakeup ) but it is spot on according to Steven.

    This is a common trick . When something sounds wrong, you should say a lot at the moment that it's perfect. The viewer's attention is distracted at this point from listening to the source.

    And no one should trust anything that comes out of Slates mouth. ^^ I believe most of the ampsims demo sounds by any Dev are fake. They sound really good but once I download them and try them with a high end guitar, pickups and soundcard and they just sound like...like an ampsim. Dull and lifeless. Sounds nothing close to the demo sounds.

  • I

    And no one should trust anything that comes out of Slates mouth. ^^ I believe most of the ampsims demo sounds by any Dev are fake.

    Not that I meant - but I remember the same type of behavior in the case of Anderton's and KPA video. They are simply sellers and that's it.

    They have their tricks and I personally look very closely at what and when they say.

    This is a matter of a critical approach to what is given to us under the nose ;)

  • I specifically said that they were accurate, Brother AJ, meaning that they were for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the source amps; very-close at least.


    The subjective quality of any source amp in a "Profiling" comparison is irrelevant; it's about the accuracy of reproduction and nothing else. You've (probably unintentionally) created a straw man, brother. ;)


    FWIMBW, I'm not, nor have I ever, made any sort of judgement about how the plugin compares with the Kemper; I haven't even used the software yet. I simply responded in Christophe's thread 'cause of the preset update and new vids.


    What I meant, Brother Nickster, was that it was intentionally dumbed down. Those tones were unusable, so the question of accuracy just goes out of the window.


    It's almost as if they "reverse engineered", i.e. tweaked the amp to match the capabilities of the amp sim. Just pull up any JCM800 modded or otherwise on the rig exchange (I think I have some Cameron modded ones somewhere) and it's obvious these were far, far off from accurate modelling.


    I like Slate, fwiw. Funny guy and ambitious. Makes some good products, but this video was just disingenuous.

  • It sounds and looks like an ampsim and that is what it is. Nothing more. I tested the demo and for being an ampsim it was good. But no ampsim comes close to the kemper. It's just not possible with only software. All ampsims are emulations and nothing more. We have seen many dev's claim their ampsim(s) sounds just like the real deal. Some of them comes close, like 50-60%. Some less and some of them don't sound like the hardware at all.

  • What I meant, Brother Nickster, was that it was intentionally dumbed down. Those tones were unusable, so the question of accuracy just goes out of the window.


    It's almost as if they "reverse engineered", i.e. tweaked the amp to match the capabilities of the amp sim. Just pull up any JCM800 modded or otherwise on the rig exchange (I think I have some Cameron modded ones somewhere) and it's obvious these were far, far off from accurate modelling.


    I like Slate, fwiw. Funny guy and ambitious. Makes some good products, but this video was just disingenuous.

    I totally get you, Brother AJ.


    I'm sure you understand that I was coming from a proof-of-concept POV, whereas you're looking at Rigs offered and available right now.


    If the ability is indeed there to Profile real rigs with some sort of accuracy, it follows that in time all tastes will be catered for. Time will tell.

  • It sounds and looks like an ampsim and that is what it is. Nothing more. I tested the demo and for being an ampsim it was good. But no ampsim comes close to the kemper. It's just not possible with only software. All ampsims are emulations and nothing more. We have seen many dev's claim their ampsim(s) sounds just like the real deal. Some of them comes close, like 50-60%. Some less and some of them don't sound like the hardware at all.

    Why is it not possible with software alone? Apart from considerations about latency or hardware power amps, kemper could easily be a VST and sound super close to how it does now, recorded. In my experience, Helix native sounds like the hardware unit.


    I've also done tests using things like amplitube, s gear vs profiles of comparable amp models vs similar real world amp models, using the same IRs, where very few could tell the difference. Even then, it hasn't always been a case of "this or that is clearly better". At times, I've found such judgement to be more in line with what's shown on the screen and where a test is shared compared to sound alone. Of course, that's not the whole story either.


    I tested the TH3 VST. I didn't think it was too bad, actually. With similar IRs to what I use with direct profiles, I got relatively close to my kemper tones. That said, I still preferred profiles of my amps.

  • Indeed, Dimi.


    GearJocke , you might've missed the reason why this thread exists, I think:

    It's not "just another modeller" - at least, that's the claim. Instead of the usual component-modelling route, the company has found a way to "capture" (its words) real-world Rigs.


    Much as we tried early in this thread and also at GearSlutz to get proper clarification on how this capture process of theirs differs from the Kemper one, and how, as has been alluded to, THU can, as a paid-for service to the customer, create captures from Kemper Rigs, we failed. Everything's being kept super-secret for now.


    What we can safely assume in the meantime IMHO is that it's definitely not the usual component modelling that's going on here.

  • Much as we tried early in this thread and also at GearSlutz to get proper clarification on how this capture process of theirs differs from the Kemper one, and how, as has been alluded to, THU can, as a paid-for service to the customer, create captures from Kemper Rigs, we failed. Everything's being kept super-secret for now.

    Will be interesting to see what this ultimately amounts to.


    Bias 2 has automated more than EQ matching in their "amp match" function. I've had some success with that, both matching my amps and kemper profiles. Some success also been had using Axe Fx... but that's less automated, only involving EQ, so typically involves some more manual work tweaking amp sims (though results tend to be better than bias for me).... Never mind that bias updated amp matching has not been as consistent as kemper for me, and still "feeling like bias"... which I can see why some dislike.


    Now I haven't researched enough on the "profile to TH3" bonanza, so may be missing some info... But assuming you have quite flexible amp sims, I can see how even just shooting IRs to be bundled in presets, in one way or another, could get close to some kemper profiles (or real miced up amp tones, for that matter). It's not so surprising considering what a big part of the tone cab and micing are. I'm not saying this is all TH3 does/will do. Just seeing this over and over again, for years, doing stuff like this a hundred times over, I'd be interested to see just how they emulate the profiles and what's genuinely novel, in what way, ect, ect...


    ... As well as conduct tests... Because... "close enough" will not be exact, if that's what it could possibly come down to, either. Even if I can make bias sound quite close to some of my best profiles and amps, there's often meaningful-to-me nuances that let it down. It's not always the case, but often so, comparatively speaking, even if usage scenario comes into play as well. Just using bias as an example. And I'm not considering issues having to do with latency.


    This is not to ding TH3 either. I'll probably throw together a few attempts at matching my own amps with the VST, anyway. But skeptical Dimi is skeptical about the profile-to-TH3 tone bonanza. Waiting to see details.

  • Waiting to see details.

    Indeed, Dimi. It's a mystery that I'm sure we all hope will be revealed sooner rather than later.


    Nobody really likes being kept in the dark, and I'd say this applies especially to Kemper "fans" / owners / users at this point 'cause of the rig-capture claims. "Entire signal chain" - where have we heard that before? :/

  • Why is it not possible with software alone? Apart from considerations about latency or hardware power amps, kemper could easily be a VST and sound super close to how it does now, recorded. In my experience, Helix native sounds like the hardware unit.


    I've also done tests using things like amplitube, s gear vs profiles of comparable amp models vs similar real world amp models, using the same IRs, where very few could tell the difference. Even then, it hasn't always been a case of "this or that is clearly better". At times, I've found such judgement to be more in line with what's shown on the screen and where a test is shared compared to sound alone. Of course, that's not the whole story either.


    I tested the TH3 VST. I didn't think it was too bad, actually. With similar IRs to what I use with direct profiles, I got relatively close to my kemper tones. That said, I still preferred profiles of my amps.

    Hi Dimi,


    I mostly agree with you.


    The Kemper is a DSP engine at its roots for sure. IMO, the biggest value the platform has is its ability to very effectively parameterize a system response captured from a real amp so that it is very easy for a user to tweak after the profile to their own taste.


    In theory, a PC (with the proper hardware) could do the same thing .... but they haven't. Kemper's IP isn't just that it captures the amp so well, it also:


    1) Tweaks the amp so well

    2) Provides an easy to understand and use EFX engine

    3) Provides a cataloging system for performances

    4) Provides hardware which is road worthy (A PC is not road worthy IMO)

    5) Provides controls which tube amp users are used to dealing with (little or no training)

    6) Provides a remote that is both road worthy, and well integrated into the KPA.


    A VST won't do these things no matter how well they capture the amp system response. Additionally, the dedicated hardware in the Kemper provides a very low latency chain which allows all the processing to occur without phase and time alignment issues. While this is possible in the PC, it is really only seen IME on high end digital mixers.

  • Let's to forget one of the most-important reasons of all - that of Kemper's IP being more-secure in a hardware unit.


    A plugin or app would likely be cracked within days, the net effect being that this'd remove potential customers from the pool. Sure, it may even create some, especially those who'd otherwise never have come into contact with the Kemper, but the overwhelming majority of those who'd use pirated copies would be lost-for-good.

  • Let's to forget one of the most-important reasons of all - that of Kemper's IP being more-secure in a hardware unit.


    A plugin or app would likely be cracked within days, the net effect being that this'd remove potential customers from the pool. Sure, it may even create some, especially those who'd otherwise never have come into contact with the Kemper, but the overwhelming majority of those who'd use pirated copies would be lost-for-good.


    Pretty sure the rate of conversion would be <1%, translating into a suicidal strategy. We've seen what piracy did to the music industry.