Rig Manager 3.0 Editor

  • As I understand that due to the use of a specific library/API, it will not be possible to run the editor on windows 7.

    The only thing that's running out is MS issuing new patches for it, which is not a crisis in any way, shape or form. Windows 7 keeps running just the same, and their patches often cause as many problems as they solve. While some of my boxes are patched to the latest, others haven't been patched for years, with zero ill effect.

    it actually looks like it's time is running out.

    I believe that would be a huge mistake. There's still a very large base of people who use 7. I for one won't put 10 on any box I own because of the problems with uncontrollable automatic updates, and many others feel the same way.


    The only thing that would keep them from running on 7 is if they wrote it as UWP app. Since they have to write it cross platform for Mac anyway I think that would be a decision of dubious merit. UWP runs only on 10. Standard WPF runs on 7 and 10, and UWP is really just WPF with a coat of async paint. Why create such limitations for users?


    Of course, this is just speculation on my part. Do you know for a fact that it won't run on 7?

  • Of course, but I think many will hold out until the very end. Personally, I think they should offer continued support for people who are willing to pay for it.


    I don't want Kemper Amps to charge anybody for software support if they can help it. After all, as you said, who charges for an editor?

  • There is more than one reason to stop support for Windows 7. As long as we support it, we need to maintain our testing and development machines running that OS, and from January 2020 on, they will become vulnerable to any security breach that is discovered later on. Additionally, Windows 8 and above provide some internal improvements that sped up editor development, though they are not directly visible in the product. Rig Manager will still run on Windows 7 for quite some time, only without the editor. We won't actively prevent Rig Manager from running on Windows 7, but official support and testing will end January 2020 at the latest.

    With respect, forcing 10 on users isn't the benefit you might think. I work on a number of apps in my day gig. One is a Surface tablet running a UWP app. I run 7 for my dev environment but have to dual boot into 10 to work on the UWP app. This is a warehouse app that needed to run on a tablet, so for a MS tech shop, 10 was the only option.


    I can't tell you how many times we've come to a dead stop trying to deploy a release, and one time had our system taken down globally for several days, because of Microsoft automatic updates. You can no longer turn them off in 10, only at best defer them to a later date. That's a really big deal.


    This means every time you boot into 10, you may or may not have to sit there waiting for who knows how long because an update that you couldn't prevent has to finish installing on boot up. And as you know since you're a dev (dev boxes are the most sensitive to being screwed with), updates can also trash your environment. Which will always happen on the day that you have a deadline and really don't have time to deal with it.


    Leaving aside the recent Windows update that actually deleted user data, last year there was a Redstone update that shifted some things to lower levels. A side effect of that update took out our wireless connectivity on the Surfaces globally. It was days before a fix was obtained. In the meantime, my app, and the people counting on it, were dead in the water. Because of an update that we couldn't prevent.


    This is why 10 is not on any box in my network. Especially my music computers. For whatever performance bump you're getting in the editor by forcing 10, you're also forcing anyone who wants to use it to subject themselves to random updates on their computer, any of which could screw up their environment, and over which they have zero control. It's a very, very bad trade.


    It sounds like you guys have already made up your mind so I doubt my thoughts will have any influence, but I thought I'd share just in case. You're worried about post 2020 vulnerabilities? Arne, automatic updates that you can't control is a vulnerability. I hope karma doesn't bring you guys this lesson the hard way. :)


    Please reconsider dropping 7 support for your editor.

  • Hello ColdFrixion,


    My opening sentence was meant as hyperbole, and tongue-in-cheek.

    Nevertheless, i imagine it might be frustrating to the Kemper development, design and support team to read some of these comments. I am not pointing at any specific comments/complaints/demands...I am speaking in general. It is not my attention to offend anyone.

    I understand. I guess I've heard a lot of people reference (enter company name here) offering free updates, and I assumed you were being serious. Free updates used to be the exception. Now it seems to be the rule.

  • Chris - appreciate your thoughts here.


    Microsoft are doing serious damage to their position as a provider of a reliable base for computer applications and the myriad tasks people use them for in business and at home. They seem to want to chase the cool kids into the advertising and subsciption market and are prepared to screw with anyone who just wants to get on with their work.

  • Nevertheless, i imagine it might be frustrating to the Kemper development, design and support team to read some of these comments. I am not pointing at any specific comments/complaints/demands...I am speaking in general. It is not my attention to offend anyone.

    The fact that one's own sensitivities should be preferred to general interests cannot be ruled out.

    But the sense of this thread should serve to bring in ideas from outside.

    Criticism should be allowed and desired

  • You can turn off Windows 10 update, you can turn off Telemetry, and more.


    https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

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  • You can control updates in win 10 with gpedit.msc (group policy editor).

    Being a dev I actually prefer to stay with the latest and greatest, so I keep circling back around to this issue. My corporate IT guys, who do more with group policies and such things than I do, are still telling me that you can defer but not completely turn them off.


    If that's now changed, could you point me to the appropriate KB article that shows how to disable them completely? My IT guys would probably erect a statue in your honor. :)

    You can turn off Windows 10 update, you can turn off Telemetry, and more.

    I appreciate the thought, but third party tools that try to hack their way around the OS are typically trouble waiting to happen. It's also an arms race. They find a hack, MS blocks it, they find another, rinse and repeat. There were plenty of these being published when they first released 10, with all it's "phone home" data gathering and the unblockable updates.


    If Damian's correct that you can now completely disable them via a standard MS utility it's good news indeed, but unless it's explicitly supported by MS it's a bad idea to try to hack the system.

    I started with MS DOS 3.0

    Wow, you're really old, man. I didn't start until MS DOS 3.1. I bet you walked to school in the snow and everything. :)

  • This works for Windows 10 Education, Pro and Enterprise, but not Windows 10 Home.

    I never use home versions.


    Looks like I need to install a 10 box and test this. If they're now allowing users to completely disable automatic updates, I can finally migrate some boxes to 10.


    I don't particularly care for the OS (the desktop feels a lot like Windows 3.1 UI) as it doesn't really do anything for me that 7 doesn't already do, but since this is how I pay the bills I try to stay with latest and greatest when possible.

  • I never use home versions.


    Looks like I need to install a 10 box and test this. If they're now allowing users to completely disable automatic updates, I can finally migrate some boxes to 10.


    I don't particularly care for the OS (the desktop feels a lot like Windows 3.1 UI) as it doesn't really do anything for me that 7 doesn't already do, but since this is how I pay the bills I try to stay with latest and greatest when possible.

    I haven't tested whether changing the Group Policy actually works in Pro or Enterprise, so I'm taking the statement at face value, however sources indicate that it does not work for Win 10 Home Edition.

  • Have you tested to see if you can fully disable automatic updates in your own Windows 10 environment?


    The things I've been reading indicate mixed results.

    What do you mean fully? You can choose to install updates or not.

    I think that you demonize the new system. If something will stop working you can uninstall suspicious update. For me it's working stable better then win 7. My devices are all supported an no blue screens. I have second partition with Win 7 but from some time I try to work with win 10 and it looks ok for me.