Tried re-amping direct recorded guitar signal...bleccccch!!!

  • I recorded 5 tracks using various amplifiers (with the same direct recorded guitar track). The results were terrible. All kinds of yucky tones and weird phase issues. :huh:


    But, if I physically played the parts five times, using the same amps as the previous tracks, the results were much better. :thumbup:


    And if I re-amp a direct recorded guitar signal using on-board guitar amp plugins (Guitar Rig, Amplitube, LePou) the results are fine. :thumbup:


    I guess this might be obvious to some; I'm kind of a newb at this...but it still was a surprise. :wacko:


    Anyone else have better results re-amping? 8|


    Am I doing something obviously wrong? ?(

  • Am I doing something obviously wrong? ?(

    Looks like....the question is: what? ?(


    I assume you're recording the dry track from the direct out and use spdif for re-amping. Have you muted the wet track by re-amping? Check that you're not double monitoring from the DAW. Check as well the spdif in levels....


    Could you describe every step of your signal chain?

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • Reamping very much depends on the signal quality of the DI signal from and to your audio interface. If you have the feeling that your reamped tones are not as good as if you were directly recording the output of the KPA while playing you should consider a different setup. A connection using SPDIF in/out is highly advisable because the signal quality will be constant throughout the whole process with no further D/A or A/D conversions.

  • Reamping very much depends on the signal quality of the DI signal from and to your audio interface. If you have the feeling that your reamped tones are not as good as if you were directly recording the output of the KPA while playing you should consider a different setup. A connection using SPDIF in/out is highly advisable because the signal quality will be constant throughout the whole process with no further D/A or A/D conversions.


    +1
    If you are not using the spdif in/out i hope you are using a reamp box (like Palmer, Radial or LittleLabs ones) to send the direct recordered signal into the KPA.
    I you aren't, you should. If you are using it but still weird results, probably there's something wrong with the levels.

  • Sounds like something's wrong with the way you ate refeeding signal back into Kemper. Keep in mind that coming out of your daw will most likely be line level This is why there is re amping boxes that help with the proper impedance and level both ways.

  • The signal chain is...


    1st recording (direct track):
    Guitar > KPA direct out > Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 > Logic


    Then, for re-amping:
    Logic > Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 > KPA main outs > Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 > Logic (different track)


    I should note that the tracks sound fine individually; it's when you combine them that it starts sounding crappy (phase?).


    Also, I've re-amped this way with real amps and not had issues.


    When I have a little more time, I'll upload clips.


    Hope that helps.

  • If your re amping the exact same take from the same performance then layering it several times with different amp tones but all from the same take it will have phase issues its normal as its the same initial performance. There's things you can do to correct it like inverting phase hard panning or slipping the time by 1-2 ms on certain tracks. but the bigger question is why are you using the same performance to re amp lots of amp sounds together? this will always sound better with different takes layered and also avoid any possible phase issues

  • It's normal that you're having phasing issues due to the added latency from extra A/D D/A conversions. SPDIF will reduce the problem, but as Chris said you need to move the tracks in order to eliminate it

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • If your re amping the exact same take from the same performance then layering it several times with different amp tones but all from the same take it will have phase issues its normal as its the same initial performance. There's things you can do to correct it like inverting phase hard panning or slipping the time by 1-2 ms on certain tracks. but the bigger question is why are you using the same performance to re amp lots of amp sounds together? this will always sound better with different takes layered and also avoid any possible phase issues


    It's normal that you're having phasing issues due to the added latency from extra A/D D/A conversions. SPDIF will reduce the problem, but as Chris said you need to move the tracks in order to eliminate it


    That's what I needed guys. I wasn't sure if this was normal or not. If the accepted standard is to always do multi-takes, then that's the way I need to go.


    I'm trying to re-create the "wall of sound" I hear on professional recordings. Green Day "American Idiot" comes to mind. The guitars are HUGE. It doesn't sound like multiple takes either...maybe it's just hella tight. ;)


    Like I mentioned, the issue wasn't as noticeable when using multiple internal plugins or using a splitter to two real amps so I wasn't sure.


    That being said...how many layers/performances would be common to achieve a sound like that? 2? 4? 6? More?


    Thanks! :D

  • Hi,
    same problem here X(
    one source track, reamped with two different Kemper sounds -> phase issues!


    Please do not question the way the initial poster and I work. I for one do it like this for years, to blend different amp tones together for the final track.


    Having a deep look into a fully zoomed in waveform in cubase I see very very strange results - the problems are obvious:
    one passag in phase, next one out of phase. phase-correlations change all the time randomly.
    with the same source track this is an absolute no go!
    I had never problems like these using VST Plugins or different real amps. once the recorded reamped tracks are moved, so that they are phase-alligned, they stay in phase all the time. Now with the Kemper tracks, there´s no chance to get them alligned, because the original phase behaviour is not printed 1:1 to the recording....something in the box brings a ramdom factor to the game....


    what´s goining on here?




    PS:
    my setup:
    Cubase 6.5 ->
    steinberg MR816 Firewire interface mono out ->
    Radial reamp Box ->
    Kemper ->
    Chandler Germanium Preamp ->
    steinberg MR816 Firewire interface in ->
    Cubase 6.5

  • phase-correlations change all the time randomly.

    Does it happen also if you reamp using the same cab? (in the Kemper, I mean)
    Being the Cabs done by the users together with the profiles I doubt that 2 of them have the same phase....

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • with the same source track the recorded tracks surely have the same phase!


    but to answer your question:
    no matter which cab I dial in, there´s always phase problems - even with the SAME cab on both tracks


    but check this out: using the SAME AMP twice delivers two track not correctly in phase!


    as I said, the results are somewhat random!


    big disappointment, because I was just starting to reamp a big CD production.....not with Kemper :(

  • ChrisBeaver is our expert of multitracking here, Feck and a couple others own studios, hope they chime in because AFAIK they have no issues. Maybe they are able to clarify it, I'm mainly a live player, never been a studio cat

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • Please do not question the way the initial poster and I work. I for one do it like this for years, to blend different amp tones together for the final track.


    Hahaha...well spoken.


    The thing I don't understand is that I do NOT have this re-amping issue with real amps or plugins.


    That's what threw me for a loop.

  • here is a 4-track recording from always the same source track!
    the two above are recored with one Kemper preset, the two below with another one.


    in example 1 you can see the first two tracks with the one Kemper preset in perfect phase, the third one with the other Kemper preset also in phase, and the fourth one out of phase
    http://www.frogstar-battle-machine.de/phase1.jpg



    example 2 is some seconds later of the same recording. suddenly all four tracks are in phase!
    http://www.frogstar-battle-machine.de/phase2.jpg


    bummer!

  • Now this is REALLY strange. You mean that the latency dynamically changes while playing? I could have imagined that perhaps a different amp or cab might have i slightly different offset, but his is really strange. I will check this with my own setup, reamping the same di track with the same profile. Which firmware are you on?