Dave Friedman’s view of kemper.....

    Friedman is right, the digital stuff has not the same physical interaction as the real thing. But, he also accepts that Kemper is "taking the sound", which is exactly the point. Many users are willing to sacrifice part of the interaction provided by heavy physical gear and get that sound with some credible interaction from convenient and cost effective gear.


    Just take a look to the digital piano profiling/modeling industry, which is years ahead of guitar amp profiling/modeling R&D, chasing the "real" sound of physical, very expensive and huge pianos. Yamaha R&D has delivered cost effective Hybrid pianos, Digital pianos, and Keyboards that offer profiles of their much more expensive and huge Acoustic Concert Pianos and even they are improving the keys weight and sensitivity trying to be closer to the "real piano" as well.


    It is true that Digital Pianos does not offer the same physical interaction that you get from an acoustic Piano, but thanks to the technology, many users and professional musicians can enjoy credible piano sounds at home, studio, stage, everywhere with the convenience that a beautifully expensive, heavy weight Acoustic piano can't offer. We can be sure that the world has much more piano players after this digital wave started.


    By the way, do you hear your keyboard players complaining about "piano in the room" or being so worried about the physical interaction of their keyboards compared with a real piano?. How many bands travel with "real pianos"? Perhaps Elton John with that million dollar piano show.

    It's a little different based on the gargantuan size and weight of traditional pianos. A guitar head/cab can still fit in your car, for instance.


    There are pianists who talk about how different it is to play a true grand piano in a room with natural harmonics, reverb, etc. Even the feel of the keys and interaction of the vibrations is a completely different experience. However, they're also widely accepting of digital emulation because they can't cart a grand piano around with them everywhere, and some pianos hosted at venues may not be to their liking. They vary tremendously in playability and sound. But even still, classical pianists aren't playing digital pianos, just the more modern players in smaller groups.

    I'm sure that ol Dave has his reasons, opinions and that all fine and good, and I do like the sound of his product. I also like the sound of my Kemper, and it's the main reason I own one. I really don't give a flip if that upsets other amp or guitar makers and it doesn't bother me if they consider this cheating, not real, or otherwise a lesser ear full unless they care to fork over for my next purchase. Then I might listen a bit harder to their reasons as to why I don't really want or need xyz. That said, No offense to any one in particular and All the best to the amp makers 8)

    If you use FRFR the benefit of a merged profile is that the cabinet is totally separated in the profile.


    For my edification only... ;) Kemper/Axe-FX III/ Quad Cortex user

    Like 1

    (A) OK.


    (B) Are the other modern era amp designers who 'pirated' the foundation of their circuit designs going public with accusations of 'piracy' against digital simulation designers?


    (C) "That's just the nature of the amp industry." Friedman obviously subscribes to this. Well, a Friedman amp being digitally modeled or profiled is "just the nature of the digital amp industry". Is what's good for the goose, all of a sudden not good for the gander?


    (D) Wrong. His amps are popular for nailing Marshall tones. Thinking otherwise is a bit naive IMO. Funny how when a guitar rag wants to do a "Marshall" shootout, you can bet a Friedman will be one of the amps in the round-up. Hmmm. :/


    If an old curmudgeon like Mike Zaite can accept and embrace the digital technology, then maybe the Friedman's of the world should take a page from him and get out from under their sour grapes.

    "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

    Edited once, last by don1960lp ().

    Like 3

    I find it ironic that he takes issue with the Kemper but seems ok with selling his own cabinets designed for modeling products to those very same Kemper users. Lol

    The way the music industry has moved in recent years can be quite brutal for musicians and manufacturers financially. It can be hard to adapt to the changing scene for some and I know many friends who are full time and still don't accept the internet ruining their income.


    Sometimes it is good to just let someone have their moment to complain and feel better.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

    Like 2
    Quote from drog

    I find it ironic that he takes issue with the Kemper but seems ok with selling his own cabinets designed for modeling products to those very same Kemper users. Lol

    I can't speak for all these guys, but having spoken to a few I can say it's really a matter of methodology. Modelers, in the traditional sense, make their own "models". Of course the sounds seek to emulate particular amps, but they put the engineering work into recreating that tone, which is itself like making a new amp.


    The objection they have to the Kemper is how it's marketed. People are persuaded that they can have "any amp" and that a profile is basically a replacement for the amp itself. That's obviously not true but people buy into that marketing and it has an adverse effect on amp manufacturers and their livelihoods. The idea that they can spend all this time and resources making products for somebody to "steal" the amp in a KPA is understandably upsetting. I've encountered examples of people buying amps, profiling them, then returning them. To me that's ethically untenable.


    Basically, it's possible for these guys to object to the KPA's methodology while being perfectly fine with other modelers and make some products for that market.

    Quote from don1960lp

    His amps are popular for nailing Marshall tones. Thinking otherwise is a bit naive IMO. Funny how when a guitar rag wants to do a "Marshall" shootout, you can bet a Friedman will be one of the amps in the round-up. Hmmm. :/

    He actually made his name modifying Marshall's, as many other amp manufacturers did at one point. The ones who made amps often get labeled as "hot-rodded Marshall's", but that's not the same thing as recreating a Marshall. Beyond that, Friedman's may be cut from a very similar cloth, but there are differences for sure, and different models offering tonal and voicing variations. And if you want to go back far enough, a Marshall is just a Bassman clone with 12" speakers.

    Point is that they all have relatively the same circuitry outside of smaller nuances, but those nuances are important. They also require time, resources, and expertise to execute. To write off Friedman as just some Marshall copycat is a bit intellectually dishonest.

    Quote from MementoMori

    1) The objection they have to the Kemper is how it's marketed.


    2) I've encountered examples of people buying amps, profiling them, then returning them. To me that's ethically untenable.


    3) To write off Friedman as just some Marshall copycat is a bit intellectually dishonest.

    1) How is Kemper any different than Line 6, Fractal, Headrush, Et. al., in the key proponent of their marketing pitch; Get authentic tweed, British, boutique, etc. tones, without all of the hassle.


    2) Unfortunately this is common-place in all consumer markets these days. Buy a digital recorder, record an album, then return it. Buy a 2000" TV for the Super Bowl then return it. Not a negative point against any single CE company.


    Re: Friedman Amps. If you were to stop random people roaming the amp floor at NAMM and asked them which amp brand the Friedman's pay homage to, 99% of the responses from people who were aware enough of Friedman to answer, would be Marshall. Not a knock on folks like Friedman, Germino, Metropoulos, or Fargen. It is what it is.

    "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

    Like 2
    Quote from don1960lp

    1) How is Kemper any different than Line 6, Fractal, Headrush, Et. al., in the key proponent of their marketing pitch; Get authentic tweed, British, boutique, etc. tones, without all of the hassle.


    2) Unfortunately this is common-place in all consumer markets these days. Buy a digital recorder, record an album, then return it. Buy a 2000" TV for the Super Bowl then return it. Not a negative point against any single CE company.


    Re: Friedman Amps. If you were to stop random people roaming the amp floor at NAMM and asked them which amp brand the Friedman's pay homage to, 99% of the responses from people who were aware enough of Friedman to answer, would be Marshall. Not a knock on folks like Friedman, Germino, Metropoulos, or Fargen. It is what it is.

    1. As I stated before, they engineer models based upon the amps they have. How close or far is as good as their own programming. The Kemper is a little different in that it advertises an exact facsimile of an existing setup.


    2. To some degree, but the KPA's ability to only capture from an existing setup has turned this into a real occurrence. I'm not suggesting the KPA is to blame but this is how guys see it. It's an added cost to them and the dealers they sell to which winds up increasing prices across the board.


    3. Ok, but I don't see what this proves. It's not that Friedman is making Marshall clones, he is making amps that were originally based on Marshall schematics but modified and modernized. It's just that instead of modding Marshall's, you can buy the amp built from the ground up by the guys who modded those amps in a way people love and recognize. Besides, people's impressions don't always tell the story and Dave Friedman has several different models with many different features that go well beyond the traditional scope of Marshall. My point in bringing this up is the "he just makes Marshall clones" argument is both misleading and a rationalization for KPA users who take exception for him targeting their beloved piece of gear.

    Unfortunately for Mr Friedman, you can't patent a sound.


    If the argument is being made that Kemper's approach to making their amp sound line another amp is simply too easy, that is kind of silly IMO. With this line of thinking, it would have been OK if Kemper had made it more difficult to profile an amp even if the result was the same.


    I would agree that Kemper presents a pretty serious issue in the long run for tube amp makers. This is no different than Amazon and its Kendel posing a threat to Boarders Books.


    In the short run, Kemper is only a threat to very expensive amps. By the very nature of the amp being "very expensive", it is a novelty which someone is willing to pay premium dollar for. I think only a small percentage of boutique amp owners would choose to buy a Kemper instead of the actual amp.


    On the other end of the spectrum, I don't think the sales of a Peavey Classic 30 are going to be effected by Kemper. It is currently just a completely different target marketing range.


    Interestingly, it seems that touring musicians are the best value proposition for Kemper ..... and I suspect that the lions share of these musicians own the amp rigs they are profiling and using with their Kemper.


    I find it difficult to believe that Mr Friedman is losing much market share to Kemper and Axe ..... and if he is losing some of this market, it isn't because these solutions are less expensive, it is because they are easier to use on the road.


    This is why I bought a Kemper. Seriously ..... it had nothing to do with tone. I just got tired of lugging my VHT amp and VHT 4x12 cab (and sometimes the fat bottom 2x12 cab too) to gigs. I was very surprised at how nice the Kemper sounded, but that wasn't why I bought it.


    If tube amp makers want to stave off people like me from purchasing Kemper's, they need to make an amp that fits into a 3 space rack, weighs 11 lbs, and has all the EFX built in with a digital foot pedal to drive it all.


    It is the features of a Kemper that is selling it to most people IMO. The profiling is just an interesting side item. Seriously, how many of us even knew what a Friedman sounded like before Kemper? Even if I knew (and I do like the way they sound), and the Friedman was less expensive than a Kemper, I would still prefer the features of the Kemper by a long shot.

    Quote from MementoMori

    1. As I stated before, they engineer models based upon the amps they have. How close or far is as good as their own programming. The Kemper is a little different in that it advertises an exact facsimile of an existing setup.

    i actually take the totally oposite view to that.


    The amp modelling methodology is to model the components then combine them in the way that the original amp does. Therefore, the programing work isn’t in copying tha amp but in creating the methodology to allow you to actually pirate the original amp’s schematic.


    In the case of the Kemper the programing work also went into creating a methodology for capturing the sound. However, it is a totally different process which completely ignores the original amp’s schematic design. Therefore, the Kemper can’t be pirating the original amp manufacturers copyrighted intellectual property. However, component level modelling definitely does steal their IP.


    If I was an amp designer I would be attacking the people who literally try to copy my circuit as that is what the designed and have a right to protect.

    Quote from V8guitar

    Surely the way forward for Freidman...license his "sound".


    I'd rather pay for an endorsed product than just someones attempt at it.

    Assuming they do a good job and get the tones I'd expect/want from these Amps... Which... May or may not be there.


    In this case Friedman already has the vst app and it's quite good imo.

    The bonanza

    I played a Friedman JJ-100 yesterday afternoon back to back with some JJ-100 profiles I bought. Same cabinet for both which was a Mesa straight with V-30's. After about 5 minutes or so adjusting a little on the Kemper, my conclusion is Dave is scared and rightfully so...


    The sounds on the profiles versus the amp where so freaking close that the 4 of us in the room were shocked. As for feel and the way it responded, it was on par. Do I think it's piracy? Not one bit. Do I think people buying amps and taking them back after profiling them is cool? No, that to me just plain dirty. My buddy who owns the Friedman said, he still won't sell his tube amps but did concur that the Kemper was something amazing and plans on buying one.


    PS, the Cantrell tone oozes from this amp and the profiles. And to me, it sounds like a hot rodded, goosed out Marshall.

    Totally disagree. The amps we are talking about all roughly have the same schematic and borrow from one another to begin with. We all understand that the modeler makes interpretations of an amp & its components. Nobody is suggesting it is the amp or a replacement. On the flip-side, those in Kemper land often speak of a belief in "capturing" the amp. From the years I've been on and around the forum, I've seen users a number of times talking about selling their amps after getting a Kemper or dismissing the idea of ever buying a tube amp again because they can just hoard profiles of it, as though it's the same.


    There's definitely a different culture from modeling to profiling and the profiling culture understandably concerns amp makers more than modelers. They figure "why do I bother investing thousands of dollars and hours into R&D to make an amp that some guy thinks he can steal and replace by making a profile of it?". I'm not saying I 100% agree with that logic, but that's what it is.

    Quote from MementoMori

    Totally disagree.

    we’ll have to agree to disagree on that on then ;)


    as for the culture issue, I still think it os the reverse of what you are saying. If I buy an AXE FXiii and it faithfully models the amp schematic in theory I have the full amp. That should be a bogger worry and a bogger reason to never need to buy an amp again than the Kemper which only faithfully captures a specific snapshot of an amp or amp plus speaker plus mic(s). Regardless of what people say, the threat to real amps is from modelling if it manages to capture the circuits accurately enough.