Dave Friedman’s view of kemper.....

  • Tom Abraham has run FOH for a who's who of rock and metal legends for decades. He knows what he's talking about. So when he says that the Kemper is the best modeler/profiler sonically but that all of them are inferior to a tube amp in the mix, I'd listen to him.


    And he's not just talking about frequency response and "EQ". There's also compression and transient response at various frequencies and how those things affect the ability of the guitar to cut through the mix even though they may "sound" identical.


    He's not dumping on modelers, or profilers. He's just describing his experience, which he admits completely surprised him. He thought the guitars sounded IDENTICAL when isolated, but for some reason they disappeared in the mix.

    His specific experience with the Plexi in the mix was with the FAS modeller and he prefers the KPA from what he says and perhaps the same situation - live mix with a KPA Plexi profile - that issue would not apply. Seems like a great many artists from MBritt and Bert to household names are touring on big stages with the KPA and sometimes the whole band - bass and guitars are using them.


    The point you make about transient response wrt to compression and transient frequencies is an interesting one. The study of human response to sound shows that we are especially attuned to the attack transients of any sound and devote a lot of neural processing to just these parts of any sounds we encounter. From an evolutionary perspective, I guess we can surmise that surviving predators and enemies sneaking up on us was pretty important for our ancestors. Anyway, that is how we are built and it could indeed be a critical part of the way we process the parts the various instruments play in a mix.


    Just in general wrt to some of the other comments about moving air. As far as a mix goes - a mix that you can listed to on monitors or with cans is all about audio - 10 or 20 Hz to - 20kHz , which is to say radiating waves of variable air pressure that excites your tympanic membrane. Invoking sonic impulses that you experience in close proximity to amps or kick drums or whatever in a live situation - trust me I have felt that stuff myself - does little to explain what is audible or not in a mix of recorded material which might be playing back in a booth or control room at 85 dB or so.

  • I don't believe anyone here would like "to mess" with a top tier FOH-guy like Abraham..except other top FOH-guys of course who mix top acts using two KPAs,and plenty of top acts use Kemper ..also a "hint" is that only very few use their axefx as amp but almost all for FX together with tube amps.Again this is not the case with the KPA.As far as we know there is no top act out there which uses the KPA only for FX.The Kemper sits well in the mix.It is proven to do so.No matter if studio or live.It does profile the "whole amp"/rig and does not leave out crucial freqs.I believe we are far beyond of still discussing about this issue.


    Nevertheless..any opinion counts.In the case of the Profiler the only "doubt left" is more a "believe" that it is "not like an amp" and this is okay too.We will not start a religious civil war for this..^^;)

  • I don't believe anyone here would like "to mess" with a top tier FOH-guy like Abraham..except other top FOH-guys of course who mix top acts using two KPAs,and plenty of top acts use Kemper ..also a "hint" is that only very few use their axefx as amp but almost all for FX together with tube amps.Again this is not the case with the KPA.As far as we know there is no top act out there which uses the KPA only for FX.The Kemper sits well in the mix.It is proven to do so.No matter if studio or live.It does profile the "whole amp"/rig and does not leave out crucial freqs.I believe we are far beyond of still discussing about this issue.


    Nevertheless..any opinion counts.In the case of the Profiler the only "doubt left" is more a "believe" that it is "not like an amp" and this is okay too.We will not start a religious civil war for this..^^;)

    Nikos

    Yeah - I think anyone listing to that segment of that video is going to take Abraham's word for it as far as his experience in that specific situation. He says he would take an amp anytime - and that sounds perfectly reasonable and like he is comfortable going with what he knows works - he has decades of experience with that setup as does the whole industry. I totally get that idea and that attitude sums up a lot about the music industry and players in general. I mean, who doesn't like a Les Paul? It is a known quantity, we have 60 year experience with how it behaves, 14 degree headstock and all. Whether that means we should all just fold this modelling caper up at this point is another question.


    As far as the Axe live - I agree with the notion that it is used as an FX box with tube amp heads and cabs. I have seen Steve Vai on G3 tour with that exact rig - his Legacy Carvins in stereo side by side with the AxeFX in a rack case straddling the two heads.

  • Freidman "borrowed" elements from Marshall and Fender (look at his guitars too), Soldano "borrowed" elements from the Boogie MkII, Boogie "borrowed" elements from Fender. Germino, Metro, etc etc.. I bought at least 5 amps last year and am down to buy a second Kemper sometime soon here, lol. Although, it won't be an effects box for my tube amps, sorry! ;):D

  • I know that many people who play huge places and do recordings in big studios don't see the KPA as modeler or as tube rig replacement.It is just a tool.This is the whole story.It is all about "using your personal rig you play since the 90s in a digital form" and not much more.And it is all about "no tweakings".And everything about saving time,transport costs,space,volume while loosing only a little bit of the "inspiration" a real rig gives you.


    In the end the KPA is all about "saving inspiration" for us guitar players who have to live in a world which becomes constantly more hostile to the idea of using nasty,loud tube rigs....^^;)


    The new cabs for example are part of this concept.They are "not practical" as "normal FRFRs" but only designed for "having more tube fun".It is a genius concept because it is "as rocknroll as you can get" in our times.Thus a good thing for everyone who sells electric guitars,tube amps,boutique pedals etc..and even a Mr Friedman or a Mr Abraham better get these good news.;)

  • Reminds me of that Tone-Talk interview with Tom Abraham (great interview BTW... you should listen to the entire thing if you can). Anyway, he gives his view on the AxeFX here:



    He doesn't really talk specifically about the Kemper, but it's interesting none the less.

    Very interesting.....

  • Maybe it is the inaudible stuff that real amps have that are missed by modellers? Think of the complaints by guitarists over the "amp in the room" sound lacking in modellers. I think, and this is just my opinion, that this amp in the room sound is all the inaudible noise either side of the audible sound. Think of the chug of a muted guitar chord. The air movement. The pressure. That's all inaudible noise but it has power behind it and does affect the sound, particularly in a mix. Miced cabs and profiles lack this because no one sits right next to their cab when listening to a good guitar tone. Real amps move air. That's the missing ingredient.

    This is the same old discussion. The guitars in a mix cannot be compared to an amp in the room. Kemper emulates a mic in front of an specific amp (amp+cab). That missing "piece" is only achived by play an amplifier in the room, not hearing through studio monitors. Kemper, or any modeller, not gonna model our ears, it's impossible.

    If you imagine ANY GUITAR RECORDED SOUND that you love, is impossible to achive with "the amp in the room", maybe your memory tells you that is close enough, but is a mind trick. One thing is our ears perceiving a live amp (with air pressure, volume, freq cuts of the cab, the sound of room itself!!!) and a totally diferent thing is a recorded guitar sound. It's a battle between a mic vs our ears.

  • Recently HW from Tone Junkies talked about an amp manufacturer that was not OK with profiling and that wrote to him in bad manners to take down his profiles of his amps. I guess it must have been Friedman then.


    My thoughts are exactly what has been said. What should think Marshall about Friedman then?

    Suhr, Friedman and Diezel maybe, I've had contact with all those and Suhr even sent me letters to me house ha.

  • I have nothing but respect for Dave but I have another take on the piracy issue.


    When you buy or download a Friedman profile you are getting someone else's take on that amp's "recorded tone". That's why there are 10k different Mesa Rectifier tones out there that all sound different.


    When you buy an amp you are getting the entire spectrum of that amp.


    The beauty of the Kemper is you have a library of tone snippets all in a single box.

  • It is also funny when top amp designers attack most of all one of "all these digital modelers" for "stealing" and "cloning" while they obviously don't feel any threat comming from all the " other modelers"..


    The big difference is that the KPA is indeed Rocknroll.This is the "threat".It is indeed the "feel" of a tube amp in a practical digital device.


    And most importantly..for example I use a lot some "stock" Steavens-Profiles and will also do some profiles on my own as soon as I can with my own Poundcake MK1.For me this amp is much better for my "Marshall-needs" than any Bogner or Friedman.Mr. Stephan is out of business now as far as I know but his amps "live well" in the Kemper.And there are also some other genius amp designers who are not in buisness anymore but their amps still "exist" and drive many guitar players crazy in the KPA.As some guys here already said..they heard some amp in the KPA and then bought the real one..is this not really,really great?


    If Mr Friedman would be a clever guy (buisness-wise I mean of course..) he would "hug" the KPA and understand that there is always a "future & development" we can't escape.The KPA is not a stealer.It is an archive.A huge "book of tube amps" and it is a big honour to be "mentioned" in this book...and most of all it is for sure good for buisness..;)

  • I still find it freaking hilarious that a guy who is making a living producing his version of Marshall amps has anything to comment on when it comes to this subject.

    Chutzpah:


    A child who, after killing his father and mother, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan.

  • BTW after hearing his view,, I sold my Pink Taco,,jus sayin,,,He said he worked years to come up with his amps tone,,,,.,, doesn't he mean Mr Marshall and Leo ,,worked hard for years , just to have guys like him take it, mod the thing ,, and call it their own??? what a hypocrite,,

    Ill never touch any of his products again,,just not cool,,,at all,,not what MUSIC is all about,,,at least to me,,,hope to see a ton of Friedmans on CL soon,,,

    What a total disappointment,

  • I went out and bought a Morgan because I loved the profile so much,, never heard of that amp before kemper,,Amp Makes should thank Mr Kempoer for bringing their brand to the masses,,

    That highlights the fundamental difference between the Kemper and an actual amp. With Kemper profiles, you get a snapshot of one specific setting of the amp / cab / mic / placement. With the amp, you get every position of every knob, i.e. unlimited possibilities.


    I'd never heard Friedmans (or many other great amps) before the Kemper. And after hearing one, I now tell everyone I know, "Holy cow, you've got to hear these Friedmans!" Can't imagine how that could be anything but good for business.

  • Not a fan of the man nor his amps. As a member of a certain amp building and modding/cloning message board with him and numerous other amp "celebrities", there's more than enough for me to find his piracy comment hypocritical.


    Anyone can tweek a jose mod enough and get Friedman "modern 80s" tones on a stock jcm800, or go further. Anyone can find the place I'm talking about that has all the circuits and then some. His effects loop started there that someone else allegedly came up with, for instance.


    Nothing special but marketed well. I don't fault him for making a living but he should keep his retarded opinions to himself.


    P.S. John Suhr's circuits wipe the floor with Friedman's

  • It is an interesting accusation.


    So the real question in a court of law would be, does Kemper or Axe violate any laws?


    Apple sued MS over imitating their "look and feel". The courts ruled that "look and feel" can't be protected.


    In the same vane of thought, I seriously doubt that a "tone" can be protected either. The method that is used to create a tone can be protected (circuits, components, etc), but I seriously doubt that any court anywhere in the world would uphold protection of a "tone".


    It seems to me that Mr. Friedman doesn't object to poor reproductions, only to good ones. Making a good reproduction of a tone is ..... not stealing according to any law I am familiar with.


    I also agree that the likelyhood of Kemper/Axe increasing sales of a boutique amp is much better than decreasing the sales.