Dave Friedman’s view of kemper.....

  • as for the culture issue, I still think it os the reverse of what you are saying. If I buy an AXE FXiii and it faithfully models the amp schematic in theory I have the full amp. That should be a bogger worry and a bogger reason to never need to buy an amp again than the Kemper which only faithfully captures a specific snapshot of an amp or amp plus speaker plus mic(s). Regardless of what people say, the threat to real amps is from modelling if it manages to capture the circuits accurately enough.

    But that's not how the culture of the people interpret it. Given, you could probably find tiny examples of some people who think having an Axe III means they never need a proper tube amp ever again, but I find modeling users are more aware that it is a digital model and not an exact replacement (just convenient). It's Kemper users who often talk as though their amps have been replaced because it is a facsimile of an existing setup. The mentalities of the consumer base are quite different in my experience.


    Look at the comments on any YouTube video comparing gear (or sometimes not) and you find this weird passionate, tribal battle between the tube and digital factions. Kemper users, more than any others, are vocal in this sort of anti-tube rhetoric. I don't think this dialogue has ingratiated much love from either end of the extremes, which may also be a contributing factor.

  • I find the Kemper has been a great platform for the introduction of amps I never would have played, so much so that I am saving up for a Two-Rock.


    So the flip side is how many amps have sold because of the Kemper ?


    Maybe if Mr. Friedman was not a dinosaur that was scared of new technology, he would join in selling profiles, make some money and introduce more people to his brand.


    One more thought... without tube amps , the Kemper is an empty box. So I think sales will be fine.

  • we’ll have to agree to disagree on that on then ;)


    as for the culture issue, I still think it os the reverse of what you are saying. If I buy an AXE FXiii and it faithfully models the amp schematic in theory I have the full amp. That should be a bogger worry and a bogger reason to never need to buy an amp again than the Kemper which only faithfully captures a specific snapshot of an amp or amp plus speaker plus mic(s). Regardless of what people say, the threat to real amps is from modelling if it manages to capture the circuits accurately enough.

    2 meaningfully separate things though: a "cultural threat" in terms of user perception, and then just how good, accurate the modelling and sound is (and I know fractal does sound tests too; modelling components doesn't just go "one way" per se -- not that you claimed so). Surely the later influences the former, but more comes into play.


    In my perception, what's bugged some amp makers the wrong way when it comes to Kemper is in part the narrative of "perfectly cloning the source tone". Kemper put an A/B testing section in their device, inviting such comparisons, and that's imo a massive reason why the toaster gained as much popularity... considering it gets as close as it does to source when all works ideally, of course. At times people deduce exaggerated conclusions from all this.


    Aaaaand sure such a "user centered" testing function wasn't part of fractal or line 6 products. It's not that fractal amp Sims aren't good -- I've emulated my amps with axe fx and its tone matching as good as anything can. Yet some amp manufacturers don't care much about axe fx even if they know what it can do. They are more focused on this culture bonanza, or their idea of its existence.


    And there's a further case: when you release a new amp, it's quite unclear axe fx will include it. But with Kemper? Part of user perception of some is that you will have not only all current amps in kemper -- but future ones. We don't have new amp packs for axe fx every time an amp comes out. That's so even if you could replicate most of them via tweaking and tone matching.


    But with Kemper? It's an endless process, isn't it -- there's always some new amp coming out and user interest growing for such profiles. That includes marketing from sellers, an important element in all this, it seems to me.

    The bonanza

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

  • I find the Kemper has been a great platform for the introduction of amps I never would have played, so much so that I am saving up for a Two-Rock.


    So the flip side is how many amps have sold because of the Kemper ?

    I've brought this point up many times. Even in my own case the KPA has gotten me far more interested in amplifiers I was unaware of because of a good profile. Though, that cuts both ways as I mentioned before. Plenty of people abandoning their amps because they feel they've captured their tone or would rather buy thousands of profiles than an amp.

    Maybe if Mr. Friedman was not a dinosaur that was scared of new technology, he would join in selling profiles, make some money and introduce more people to his brand.

    I don't think he's scared in the way you're characterizing. He makes FRFR cabs & wedges, so it's not as if he's avoided the digital emulation domain. He's also designed a module for the Synergy amp system. That being said, I earlier suggested these guys still make official profiles because the KPA isn't going away. I had the same conversation with Joe Morgan.

    One more thought... without tube amps , the Kemper is an empty box. So I think sales will be fine.

    I don't think it's that cut and dry. It certainly take some of the market share. How much is something only amp builders would know, but judging from these guys making so many different products aside from amps, I doubt they make a living on amps alone.

  • I've brought this point up many times. Even in my own case the KPA has gotten me far more interested in amplifiers I was unaware of because of a good profile. Though, that cuts both ways as I mentioned before. Plenty of people abandoning their amps because they feel they've captured their tone or would rather buy thousands of profiles than an amp.

    And also quite a few times, I think, people make assumptions about disliking an amp as based on profiles... Where as the reality of sitting right there with the amp, dialing it in, not relying on snapshots of a source tone set using particular pickups... Can bring about different results.

    The bonanza

  • And also quite a few times, I think, people make assumptions about disliking an amp as based on profiles.

    Would the same people not buy because of a poorly made model?

    "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

  • Would the same people not buy because of a poorly made model?

    But there is exactly the differentiation I was talking about. Many Kemper users assume a profile perfectly captures the amp and is the amp. Meanwhile, I don't think anybody assumes the model is the amp. Beyond that, modelers offer more use for 3rd party applications like IR's. Sure, you can use IR's in the KPA but it's not often and the KPA doesn't require it because it's designed to capture the entire signal chain.

    The way consumer bases think of modeling is very different than how I've encountered many Kemper users view profiles.

  • Many Kemper users assume a profile perfectly captures the amp and is the amp.

    I think this is getting back to the culture thing. No seriously informed consumer is ever going to believe this, even if they do like to brag otherwise - and we can't blame Kemper for that.

    "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

  • I think this is getting back to the culture thing. No seriously informed consumer is ever going to believe this, even if they do like to brag otherwise - and we can't blame Kemper for that.

    But some do, and I'm not blaming Kemper, but elucidating how this comes across to amp builders. They see people talking as though their Friedman's (for example) have been perfectly replicated and replaced by the KPA. It's just not a suggestion you see from modeling users.

  • I think this is getting back to the culture thing. No seriously informed consumer is ever going to believe this, even if they do like to brag otherwise - and we can't blame Kemper for that.

    No seriously informed user will believe what exactly? That profiling is 100% accurate? Or that a profile "is the amp" in some other sense?

    The bonanza

  • No seriously informed user will believe what exactly? That profiling is 100% accurate? Or that a profile "is the amp" in some other sense?

    We've all seen both here. Problem is there's no way to ensure that all users are "seriously informed", and if there are ill-informed suggestions floating around that might negatively impact a business, you can't expect that they'll be understanding to that. Especially so when it becomes a repeated suggestion and indicative of a "culture".

  • Sure, you can use IR's in the KPA but it's not often and the KPA doesn't require it because it's designed to capture the entire signal chain.

    I sort of understand where you are coming from and don't mean to be argumentative or anything but I still stand by my point that the modeller is MORE like having the AMP than the KPA is. The modeller aims to MODEL the entire circuit of the amp and is based on the actual amp's design which the manufacturer has a valid right to protect. However, the KPA is a snapshot of "the entire signal chain" in that respect it is more like a CD (could have said vinyl but that would really show my age :)). The recording captures the SOUND without any concern for how it is produced. The KPA captures the TONE without any attempt to replicate the way it was originally produced. That's a very significant philosophical difference.


    How users choose to interpret what they have bought is irrelevant in terms of the original statement from Mr Friedman which was that the Kemper "pirates" his amps. In my opinion that is clearly and demonstrably not true. It is debatable whether the AXE FX, Helix etc do pirate the amps given that they attempt to model the circuit down to component level but is a whole other matter.


    I am not saying this in anyway to say Kemper is good modellers are bad. I actually think the AXE FX and Helix sound amazing. I chose Kemper because the workflow (including the physical amp like interface rather than the need to go deep menu diving or rely on an editing App) and lack of the need to tweak to get something useable. I treat the KPA like a real amp- simple plug 'n' play. It gives me access to all the real amp like tones I could ever need (including capturing my own valve amps the way I like them) without the reliability, noise, and transport problems of valve amps.


    It is a fabulous time to be making music as technology has developed so far and the choices open to us are mind blowing.


    With that in mind the issue probably has nothing to do with whether the consumer thinks the profiler IS the valve amp. The issues is whether the consumer even wants a valve in the first place. I honestly can't see me buying another valve amp again (unless a used Soldano HR25 comes up at a bargain price) because they are more hassle than they are worth. There is a whole generation of players coming up (i'm 50 in a few days time so I'm not one of them) who probably don't even care who Dave Friedman is, or Randy Smith or Jim Marshall or Howard Dumble............. all they care about is getting great tones in a convenient package which they can take to gigs in the back of an Uber as venues now have sound limiters, horrendous get ins, and cities have no parking near venues etc. The world has moved on. Whether I like it or not doesn't matter. I often sit moaning at my kids about what it used to be like when I was their age. Real amps, really guitars, real music - none of that rubbish you listen to son :D To their credit, they just humour me then stick their crappy apple earbuds in their head and listen to some crap that never had a Marshall Plexi within 100 miles of it.


    Rant over!

  • Again, the Dave Friedman's of the world, and his defenders, can't fault Kemper for:


    1. Choosing to be uniquely innovative in their chosen segment of the consumer electronics marketplace.

    2. Introducing a brilliant product that creates a paradigm shift in how many view a decades old technology; the facsimile of guitar amps.

    3. Being very successful with the branding and marketing of their product.

    4. Doing everything legally and by the book. (we all know lawsuits are a dime a dozen in this industry)

    "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

  • I don't see someone doing that here though. Personally I don't think what friedman says in the video ads up either. But there's reasons why that sentiment exists.

    The bonanza

  • Nobody argued any of what you mentioned, so I don't see the need to move the goal posts.

    I sort of understand where you are coming from and don't mean to be argumentative or anything but I still stand by my point that the modeller is MORE like having the AMP than the KPA is. The modeller aims to MODEL the entire circuit of the amp and is based on the actual amp's design which the manufacturer has a valid right to protect. However, the KPA is a snapshot of "the entire signal chain" in that respect it is more like a CD (could have said vinyl but that would really show my age :) ). The recording captures the SOUND without any concern for how it is produced. The KPA captures the TONE without any attempt to replicate the way it was originally produced. That's a very significant philosophical difference.

    Argument implies combativeness, which I don't think anybody has shown here, thankfully. And I don't disagree with the crux of your post, much of it I actually agree with. I'm just trying to elucidate how "Kemper culture" and "modeling culture" differ, and thus how perception of each differs when it pertains to amp builders. Though, I still maintain that "reverse engineering" an analog tone in the digital domain isn't piracy because it's a different format and still introduces human interpretation. The idea of a "Kemper capture" is understandably more concerning for these guys, especially with how authentic most people feel profiles are. It's not a team of people programming profiles, it's anybody, anywhere with any amp, at any time.

  • I sort of understand where you are coming from and don't mean to be argumentative or anything but I still stand by my point that the modeller is MORE like having the AMP than the KPA is. The modeller aims to MODEL the entire circuit of the amp and is based on the actual amp's design which the manufacturer has a valid right to protect. However, the KPA is a snapshot of "the entire signal chain" in that respect it is more like a CD (could have said vinyl but that would really show my age :) ). The recording captures the SOUND without any concern for how it is produced. The KPA captures the TONE without any attempt to replicate the way it was originally produced. That's a very significant philosophical difference.

    I agree, and I disagree.


    While I agree that the modeling approach comes closer to the text book definition of a patent violation, I think that there are some significant points to make about this.


    First,


    No one makes Axe vs Real Amp comparisons where you can't tell the difference between one and the other (at least I haven't heard any). No one says that the Axe doesn't sound good (or great even), but rarely do they say they can't tell the difference between the Axe and their Mesa IME.


    What this suggests is that while (in theory) a digital version of the real circuit should provide the same output as the real components, it is currently failing to do so convincingly. Note, again, this isn't to say that modelers sound bad, they just don't sound exactly like the amps they are modeling the way a good Kemper profile does.


    In real life, the tube amp ends up having unique sonic qualities that the modeler doesn't capture.


    Second,


    There is no way a tube amp maker could successfully sue a guitar modeler company and win. Using a computer to make sound is always going to be a completely different thing from making a hard electrical circuit to do it. No jury would ever rule any different IMO.


    Third,


    Kemper's approach (which by the way has been taught to every electrical engineer for the last 50 years), is simply better at capturing a specific amp setup convincingly. The real problem tube amp makers have with Kemper is the level to which it succeeds at sounding ..... exactly like the real thing.


    Please note, that Kemper isn't perfect. It isn't the real thing. It doesn't behave like the real thing does to changing channels, adjusting gain, or a plethora of other settings that various real tube amps have adjustments for.


    Ironically perhaps, the modeling approach should have an advantage here and be more able to react to controls the way the real amp would. It has been my experience that real world applications of the Kemper are simply easier to achieve and work with.


    ..... but I digress from my own primary point. Kemper and Axe Fx offer features that real tube amps don't. They are lighter, smaller, and infinitely more flexible than a tube amp setup with a pedal board. In other words, they are a better gig machine in every possible way when compared to a tube amp.


    The one exception to this rule (and it is a big one), is that you can get into a really good sounding rig with a 1x12 tube amp combo and a hand full of pedals at a fraction of the price of either a Kemper rig or an Axe Fx rig. It won't be as flexible, but for way less money, you can get a really nice sounding rig you can gig with this way.


    I wonder if this will be the case in 10 years though.

  • No one makes Axe vs Real Amp comparisons where you can't tell the difference between one and the other (at least I haven't heard any). No one says that the Axe doesn't sound good (or great even), but rarely do they say they can't tell the difference between the Axe and their Mesa IME.

    Not true at all.

    What this suggests is that while (in theory) a digital version of the real circuit should provide the same output as the real components, it is currently failing to do so convincingly. Note, again, this isn't to say that modelers sound bad, they just don't sound exactly like the amps they are modeling the way a good Kemper profile does.

    This is a bit misleading. There are comparisons of amps and modelers with Kemper that do a good job illustrating that sometimes the Kemper doesn't even get as close as other solutions (which there are lots of variables). Further, on this very forum there's been Axe tone matches of Kemper profiles and even Kemper cab captures with the Axe that make them virtually indistinguishable. The idea that the Kemper just owns tube tone and modelers are playing catch-up just isn't true.


    This statement can be considered true if you account for the fact that modelers model a particular amp & cab. As we know, even same-model amps can have variances from amp to amp. Maybe the Axe nails the Plexi it modeled itself after, but sounds very different from a re-tubed Plexi that somebody profiled from their private collection that's been played, gigged, and run through a different cab with different speakers in different conditions. That's where Axe capturing the Kemper cab from a profile and tweaking the relative amp can tell a lot, and the results have often been impressive IMO.

    In real life, the tube amp ends up having unique sonic qualities that the modeler doesn't capture.

    Of course, which is why it's never a true replacement. Kemper is much the same IMO. There are also other considerations like models/profiles being of mic'd guitar tones and completely losing that "in the room" feel.

    The real problem tube amp makers have with Kemper is the level to which it succeeds at sounding ..... exactly like the real thing.

    Though I'd quibble with the "exactly like the real thing" comment, you're absolutely correct that because the Kemper does such a good job and enough people have bought into it, amp builders are more threatened by its existence. Some of it is rational, some irrational. Some pragmatic, some emotional. I do think that amp builders can be honest about where the KPA falls short and also the history and romanticism of tube amplifiers. When they sound like old sticks in the mud, it does them no real service.

  • So the flip side is how many amps have sold because of the Kemper ?

    I actually bought the Kemper to replace a Mesa that was stolen from me. I still have an old Marshall Superbass but I hardly play it so it will be sold after 12 years owning it.