Amen! Especially the first sentence of point #1. All of the 'who's better' debate made me think about the scene from Casino with DeNiro and the blueberry muffins. Haven't a clue why. Just did.
Love that scene...
Dave Friedman’s view of kemper.....
- Deej09
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It's funny but I often think something similar. Many of the people who complain that digital technology will never be able to compete with "real tube amps" are metal players. When I listen to most modern metal the sounds are so multi layered and processed that they don't actually sound like valve amps anyway. Many end up using so much gain that they need to use Tube Screamers and EQs in front of the amp to tighten the bottom end because valve amps themselves aren't tight enough. If ever there was a genre that was custom made for digital processing it's modern metal and yet metal players are among the most resistant to digital amps
That's not a criticism of metal player or their tones just an observation about the strange conflict between the desire for a certain sound but a refusal to use the technology best suited to producing it. Seems weird to me but I'm an old fart so what would I know
Old farts think alike…………..
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It's funny but I often think something similar. Many of the people who complain that digital technology will never be able to compete with "real tube amps" are metal players. When I listen to most modern metal the sounds are so multi layered and processed that they don't actually sound like valve amps anyway. Many end up using so much gain that they need to use Tube Screamers and EQs in front of the amp to tighten the bottom end because valve amps themselves aren't tight enough. If ever there was a genre that was custom made for digital processing it's modern metal and yet metal players are among the most resistant to digital amps
That's not a criticism of metal player or their tones just an observation about the strange conflict between the desire for a certain sound but a refusal to use the technology best suited to producing it. Seems weird to me but I'm an old fart so what would I know
I have to say that many of the metal players I come from not contact with change their minds after a quick play of the Kemper. Just check out the artist list on the Kemper page.
Live sound is massively improved without mic’d up Cabs picking up loads of drum spill and the front of house guys love it.
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(A) OK.
(B) Are the other modern era amp designers who 'pirated' the foundation of their circuit designs going public with accusations of 'piracy' against digital simulation designers?
(C) "That's just the nature of the amp industry." Friedman obviously subscribes to this. Well, a Friedman amp being digitally modeled or profiled is "just the nature of the digital amp industry". Is what's good for the goose, all of a sudden not good for the gander?
(D) Wrong. His amps are popular for nailing Marshall tones. Thinking otherwise is a bit naive IMO. Funny how when a guitar rag wants to do a "Marshall" shootout, you can bet a Friedman will be one of the amps in the round-up. Hmmm.
If an old curmudgeon like Mike Zaite can accept and embrace the digital technology, then maybe the Friedman's of the world should take a page from him and get out from under their sour grapes.
A) OK.
B) Some of our commercial profilers have received legal notices just for naming their amps based on the real ones.
C) The profiling technology is just about 7 years old. There's been nothing like it before.
D) Lost in translation. What I meant is that people buy his amps instead of Marshalls because it is bloody good tone. Not that his amps aren't based on Marshalls. Why buy a copy of a Marshall? Because it is a bloody good copy, some may even say better than the original it is based on.
The fact still remains that Friedman is entitled to his opinion, just like guys here are entitled to their opinion about buying an amp solely to profile and then returning it. Some people are bound to have differing views.
Don't confuse his right to have his opinion with legality, he never said he is going to sue or anything, yet somehow this has turned into a whole attack on Friedman for absolutely nothing. All he did is voice his opinion, and then go on to state his opinion that it didn't feel alike.
It's funny you mention sour grapes. I don't see Friedman's statement as anything like that at all, you are letting your imagination run wild based on a statement he made when asked a question.
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Has he tried not giving his amps names that are euphemisms for assholes and vaginas?
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What I meant is that people buy his amps instead of Marshalls because it is bloody good tone. Not that his amps aren't based on Marshalls. Why buy a copy of a Marshall? Because it is a bloody good copy, some may even say better than the original it is based on.
I don’t 100% agree. Friedman’s amps may have been cut from Marshall mods, but they’re definitely different. Some of his amps, like the Butterslax, are dramatically different than anything you’d find in Marshall land.
The profiling technology is just about 7 years old. There's been nothing like it before.
EQ curve matching existed long before the KPA, even if the KPA does more (like gain stage matching plus cab capture). The entirely of its methodology was new but pieces of profiling did exist already.
Has he tried not giving his amps names that are euphemisms for assholes and vaginas?
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: why would this matter?
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I don’t 100% agree. Friedman’s amps may have been cut from Marshall mods, but they’re definitely different. Some of his amps, like the Butterslax, are dramatically different than anything you’d find in Marshall land.
EQ curve matching existed long before the KPA, even if the KPA does more (like gain stage matching plus cab capture). The entirely of its methodology was new but pieces of profiling did exist already.
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: why would this matter?
True, very true. I was just railing against this idea that he is just pushing out cheap Marshall clones and ripping off designs.
I reiterate that we haven't had anything like profiling ever.
There are other machines like the Bias, which do EQ matching, but are not like the profiler. The Axe FX also claims to be profiling, using an EQ match.
But there are certainly other elements involved, the Profiler isn't just an EQ match machine. We really don't know what goes into creating a model of an amp. Definitely far more nuances than just the EQ that are involved.
In a way, it is like capturing an entire signal chain. That's why you can even capture a preamp chain in the studio. Definitely a new and novel technology.
It is being copied now, it would appear, such as by that guitar amp sim which Slate Digital is promoting. That will result in the price point (assuming that Slate's tech is legit) dropping due to its availability as software.
When that happens, I think Friedman and others will have even more reason to feel bad.
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There are other machines like the Bias, which do EQ matching, but are not like the profiler. The Axe FX also claims to be profiling, using an EQ match.
Bias 2 introduced automatically matching other variables as well (like setting gain, picking out a proper amp for the EQ match). It's not as consistent as kemper, but can do pretty well, at times requiring some tweaking. Not that this is "profiling". Then axe fx doesn't claim to do profiling per se, but only EQ matching via "tone matching", even if they think EQ matching is a big part of profiling. At times, views of "EQ matching" have been quite negative on the forum, but I don't doubt people who consider such a thing "so much inferiorer" haven't spend too much time testing.
Personally, I enjoy how automated profiling is and whatever matching functions profiling consists of.
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Bias 2 introduced automatically matching other variables as well (like setting gain, picking out a proper amp for the EQ match). It's not as consistent as kemper, but can do pretty well, at times requiring some tweaking. Not that this is "profiling". Then axe fx doesn't claim to do profiling per se, but only EQ matching via "tone matching", even if they think EQ matching is a big part of profiling. At times, views of "EQ matching" have been quite negative on the forum, but I don't doubt people who consider such a thing "so much inferiorer" haven't spend too much time testing.
Personally, I enjoy how automated profiling is and whatever matching functions profiling consists of.
I think Cliff had used the word "profiling" at some point of time.
I agree, lots of great sounds and lots of great ways to get them.
But the Profiler is indeed unique in how 1:1 it is in capturing an amp's sound. And let's not forget, if you think it's 99%, you can dial in the 1% with this fabulous device too sometimes.
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Uhm. I've personally never seen Cliff say that axe fx does profiling, so that comes as a surprise, as I've followed the forum for a long time.
He has surely made claims about what profiling consists of, a big part (he claimed) being eq matching, giving a percentage point as to "how much of profiling is eq matching".
I find these claims dubious unless the person breaks down just what the evaluative framework is in terms to arriving to a percentage. A bit like with kemper vs amp, that topic often lacks clarity.
But that's pretty different from saying that axe fx does profiling, per se -- in fact some users had been requesting axe fx to do profiling, which he openly turned down, to the best of my memory.
About how close the units get.. I use both axe fx tone matches of my amps and kemper profiles. At least with my amps, I wouldn't say that either device has a big advantage over the other in terms of emulating these amps (at least in terms of what I can coax out of the 2 digital devices, however differently they work) unless we are talking about multiple distorting stages. But there's so much nuance on that end to go into anyway.
Still, the concept of profiling is something I like a lot, maybe even for many of the same reasons that have some amp builders concerned (and imo they aren't simply tonal ones).
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I was just railing against this idea that he is just pushing out cheap Marshall clones and ripping off designs.
Somewhere Greg Germino is wiping his brow while exclaiming *phew*.
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I reiterate that we haven't had anything like profiling ever.
There are other machines like the Bias, which do EQ matching, but are not like the profiler. The Axe FX also claims to be profiling, using an EQ match.
But there are certainly other elements involved, the Profiler isn't just an EQ match machine. We really don't know what goes into creating a model of an amp. Definitely far more nuances than just the EQ that are involved.
In a way, it is like capturing an entire signal chain. That's why you can even capture a preamp chain in the studio. Definitely a new and novel technology.
It is being copied now, it would appear, such as by that guitar amp sim which Slate Digital is promoting. That will result in the price point (assuming that Slate's tech is legit) dropping due to its availability as software.
I reiterate that EQ matching technology, which profiling no doubt relies on as a component of profiling, predates the KPA. As a whole the entirety of its methodology was new, especially with the power of putting so much control and variables in the hands of the user.
Cliff never claimed that the Axe profiled. That was a debate Dean and ColdFrixon had on the subject. What Cliff claimed was that EQ matching was “99%” of what profiling is. Personally, I don’t entirely agree and I’m sure that number was just pulled out of his ass, but regardless, he never claimed the Axe profiled, only that it already offered a feature that Cliff claimed was most of what profiling was.
As of last year, more companies are coming out with matching technology that looks very influenced by profiling, so it’s not that we continue to see nothing like it, either. It’s a very cool and interesting time in digital technology.
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I reiterate that EQ matching technology, which profiling no doubt relies on as a component of profiling, predates the KPA. As a whole the entirety of its methodology was new, especially with the power of putting so much control and variables in the hands of the user.
Cliff never claimed that the Axe profiled. That was a debate Dean and ColdFrixon had on the subject. What Cliff claimed was that EQ matching was “99%” of what profiling is. Personally, I don’t entirely agree and I’m sure that number was just pulled out of his ass, but regardless, he never claimed the Axe profiled, only that it already offered a feature that Cliff claimed was most of what profiling was.
As of last year, more companies are coming out with matching technology that looks very influenced by profiling, so it’s not that we continue to see nothing like it, either. It’s a very cool and interesting time in digital technology.
Whatever profiling is, I think we can agree, everyone wants to get in on the action!
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Whatever profiling is, I think we can agree, everyone wants to get in on the action!
It's unique in that it simply provides an algorithm and has users do much of the work and bring value to the product.
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In a way, it is like capturing an entire signal chain. That's why you can even capture a preamp chain in the studio. Definitely a new and novel technology.
It is being copied now, it would appear, such as by that guitar amp sim which Slate Digital is promoting. That will result in the price point (assuming that Slate's tech is legit) dropping due to its availability as software.I think the KPA is a great deal more than an algorithm. It is a world class gig machine from bumper to bumper.
Software mixers have been all the rage for recording for quite some time. You still see nothing but hardware out there running PA's though. Same thing IMO. There is more to it than just the algorithms.
It's unique in that it simply provides an algorithm and has users do much of the work and bring value to the product.
While I find it interesting .... even nice ... that the KPA can capture an amp, MementoMori has the key I believe.
The huge bank of sounds that are available (and cheep ... or even free) is incredible.
Keep in mind that not all amps will sound good to all people with all guitar setups. I always find it amazing the differences in opinion about what a "great" guitar tone sounds like. The many profiles surely outline this if nothing else.
The real key for me isn't necessarily any of the above though. For me it comes down to:
1) You can get an array of great sounds fast and easy
2) It is small, light, has a great gig interface, and includes studio class effects.
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EDIT -- Well, that took all of 3 seconds before someone got offended by what I thought was a rather harmless observation...so I deleted what was a rather cheeky post, meant good humor, and hereby substitute with the following anodyne and utterly prosaic observation:
The amazing and talented David Friedman is starting to look a bit like the amazing and talented Howard Dumble.
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I don't see how finding a passive way to call someone fat, possibly to undermine them as a person, can be "meaning no disrespect".
His weight or choice of names for his amps is antithetical to his opinion of the Kemper.
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While I find it interesting .... even nice ... that the KPA can capture an amp, MementoMori has the key I believe.
The huge bank of sounds that are available (and cheep ... or even free) is incredible.
Keep in mind that not all amps will sound good to all people with all guitar setups. I always find it amazing the differences in opinion about what a "great" guitar tone sounds like. The many profiles surely outline this if nothing else.
The real key for me isn't necessarily any of the above though. For me it comes down to:
1) You can get an array of great sounds fast and easy2) It is small, light, has a great gig interface, and includes studio class effects.
Not to veer too far off topic, but this is one of the main reasons I found the bans on people like SinMix overall unhelpful. I get that he conducted himself in often unhelpful ways that most wouldn't, but he brought tremendous value to the Kemper. People like me who live much of the time in high gain world found the immediate experience of the KPA very underwhelming. I've seen some say they were going to sell the KPA before finding his profiles and now they love their Kemper's.
The users bring the true value of the product, and it increases each day. The people who often talk about buying the Kemper "as is" without the promise of future developments are fooling themselves. Not only do we know the KPA is a digital device and undergoing improvements and additions, but there are always people profiling new amps and setups which make the KPA even more valuable to already own.
But perhaps that is also a reason guys like Friedman don't and likely won't do official profiles. They would be adding value to a product they oppose on ethical grounds, and in a sort of way devaluing their own product by doing so. There are arguments and counter arguments to that thinking of course.
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EDIT -- Well, that took all of 3 seconds before someone got offended by what I thought was a rather harmless observation...so I deleted what was a rather cheeky post, meant good humor, and hereby substitute with the following anodyne and utterly prosaic observation:
The amazing and talented David Friedman is starting to look a bit like the amazing and talented Howard Dumble.
I'm not easily offended, I just found it rather needless, especially in light of this threads propensity to try and discredit Dave Friedman in a litany of ways that aren't germane to the topic at hand. Pointing that out doesn't make one easily offended, especially since many people try and sneak in digs disguising them as jokes that other people "take too seriously" like your sarcastic use of the word "svelte". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I'm not easily offended, I just found it rather needless, especially in light of this threads propensity to try and discredit Dave Friedman in a litany of ways that aren't germane to the topic at hand. Pointing that out doesn't make one easily offended, especially since many people try and sneak in digs disguising them as jokes that other people "take too seriously" like your sarcastic use of the word "svelte". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hello MM,
That was an example of literary device called verbal irony. It is the incongruity of the use of the word "svelte" , which provides the ironic effect. Sarcasm involves bitter, caustic language that is meant to hurt or ridicule someone or something. That definitely was not my intent, as I think Dave Friedman is the bomb. It was just a bit of cheeky observational humor -- with admittedly some underlying concerns for the man's continued state of good health.
