Dave Friedman’s view of kemper.....

  • I'm not an idiot, I understand precisely the ironic device you were using, which was sarcastic in the original context. It didn't make me easily offended to simply point out that making a cleverly worded fat joke isn't really meaning "no disrespect".


  • For you and me, maybe. We can afford a Kemper.


    But take a look at the number of guys using software at homes to get their tones.


    In that regard, how good the hardware is is a moot point for most users. Instead, they will settle for software if they can get good tones.


    Price always trumps other considerations, in my experience.

  • How could Freidman license his sound, when he copied Marshall? Everybody copies somebody. It's how evolution works. He's not making a "better" product than Kemper. He's making a different product. At least Kemper came up with a radically new method. Friedman Amps copied circuits. and cabinet design. Geesh.

  • This threads propensity to try and discredit Dave Friedman in a litany of ways that aren't germane to the topic at hand.

    BY 'this thread' I assume you mean certain members, like me, who have taken some offense with Dave Friedman.


    Maybe a guy who built a business on top of a foundation of others shouldn't go around using the word 'pirate' in such a cavalier manner. From a technical standpoint the word can be made to fit, but on other levels it has a VERY negative connotation, and those types of accusations can actually have an extremely negative impact on those being accused.


    And before we start again with the 'there's only so many amp circuits. everyone copies them' retort, take a look at Friedman's carefully crafted cosmetics. Prior to the success that allowed him to branch out into signature models with much more original ID, the guy leaned heavily on the same brand whose circuits he used as a tone foundation.


    Friedman is by no means alone in how he carefully crafted a boutique business in the tube amplifier world by building on what was already before him - hell, Mark Sampson came out when he started Matchless saying that the main goal of the company was to design and build a better AC30.


    Maybe the guy should think twice about using words like 'piracy' when discussing other successful members of the MI industry. I owned a Dirty Shirly for a while (too loud for my situation) and my main 'raging Marshall' rig is a BE100 profile - if I had the room to really air one out, a Friedman would be very high up the list of which half stack I'd buy. Dude should just choose his words a bit more wisely.

    "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

  • How could Freidman license his sound, when he copied Marshall? Everybody copies somebody. It's how evolution works. He's not making a "better" product than Kemper. He's making a different product. At least Kemper came up with a radically new method. Friedman Amps copied circuits. and cabinet design. Geesh.

    Everybody copies somebody, but yet kemper came up with a radically new method?


    Ok, I get a charitable interpretation of the point: what kemper did was a bigger leap in innovation than Friedman amps. Perhaps considering the grand scheme of things I would agree.


    That said, Friedman is not completely bereft of innovation -- and this innovation tends to target something different than what kemper does. Creating possible tones by hardware, however Marshall-flavored, and then "profiling" are 2 meaningfully different things/domains.


    I guess what could be argued is that kemper profiles have differences compared to source tones, however small, or perhaps that kemper editing (definition, tube bias, pla pla) allow for a "kemper style" of customization as well.


    I just think it's easy to dismiss what people like Friedman do as just "copying", where as there's obviously more going on than that. Not that I agree with his idea of "piracy".

  • Dave takes another little Kemper dig about 7 minutes in....Great Jake interview though overall. Jump to about 12 min and Dave talks about the cranked Marshall being the ultimate classic metal sound...so he does acknowledge what sound he is after.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtB9aOntuck

  • BY 'this thread' I assume you mean certain members, like me, who have taken some offense with Dave Friedman.

    I'm not sure why you would take personal offense. It's not that he was talking about you.

    Maybe a guy who built a business on top of a foundation of others shouldn't go around using the word 'pirate' in such a cavalier manner. From a technical standpoint the word can be made to fit, but on other levels it has a VERY negative connotation, and those types of accusations can actually have an extremely negative impact on those being accused.

    Friedman builds amps that have a foundation elsewhere, but that's not piracy. His amps have different functions and are voiced a bit differently, so it's more like inspiration and innovation. A profile seeks to completely replicate a source, which is far more fitting of the term "piracy" despite your attempt at moral equivalency. I'm not saying I think profiling is "piracy" in the truest sense, but it's much closer than what you and others are alluding to with Dave Friedman.


    Though the KPA is a sort of "pirated sound", it's a little more complex to me due to the fact that a full profile doesn't just replicate an amp. It tries to replicate a signal chain. Pedals > Amp setting > Cab > Speakers > Mic > Mic position > Mic pre > Cables, and anything else in the chain that likely leaves an imprint on the resulting tone. We focus far too much on the "amp" portion IMO.

    Friedman is by no means alone in how he carefully crafted a boutique business in the tube amplifier world by building on what was already before him - hell, Mark Sampson came out when he started Matchless saying that the main goal of the company was to design and build a better AC30.

    Which isn't piracy, ie an "unauthorized use or reproduction of another's work". Matchless aren't total AC30 replica's any more than Friedman's are total Marshall replica's.

  • Dave takes another little Kemper dig about 7 minutes in....Great Jake interview though overall. Jump to about 12 min and Dave talks about the cranked Marshall being the ultimate classic metal sound...so he does acknowledge what sound he is after.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtB9aOntuck

    Not the first time they've talked about the Kemper on Tone Talk.


    @ 1:19:28 - 1:32:55

  • It's designed explicitly to replicate a specific signal path, as I explained earlier in my post.

    I agree it’s is designed to replicate a signal path but you said “total replica” in the quote I mentioned and I said the kemper isn’t a total replica? If that was the case all the dials such as treble, mid and bass etc. would react “exactly” the same, which they do not due to it being a snapshot only.


    If you believe it is piracy and you own/use a kemper are up you condoning using something that is illegal (IMHO the kemper isn’t an illegal product as I cannot see in any way or form an infringement on copyright).

  • I agree it’s is designed to replicate a signal path but you said “total replica” in the quote I mentioned and I said the kemper isn’t a total replica? If that was the case all the dials such as treble, mid and bass etc. would react “exactly” the same, which they do not due to it being a snapshot only.


    If you believe it is piracy and you own/use a kemper are up you condoning using something that is illegal (IMHO the kemper isn’t an illegal product as I cannot see in any way or form an infringement on copyright).

    I think you're mixing up the nuances. Matchless & Friedman's don't seek to replicate anything, Kemper does, even if in a limited way. I also never said what Kemper does is exactly piracy, I said it's much closer than the moral equivalency people are trying to rationalize in this thread by accusing Friedman of repackaging Marshall's (which he doesn't and is a gross mischaracterization). Kemper seeks to emulate a sound from an existing source, which is not what Matchless or Friedman do.


    As far as the differences you point out like the EQ dials on the front, I agree. But the attitude KPA users take, and is often said on this forum, is they "steal" the amp or the soul or what-have-you. Just because some users may have a misapprehension doesn't mean that can't affect the builder. In the video I shared, Dave also spoke about somebody buying an amp, profiling it, then returning the amp and how that hurts builders. Kemper can't be held accountable for unethical practices of their customers, especially since they don't encourage such behavior, but it nonetheless reflects on the product as the source of the issue for builders like Dave.

  • MementoMori .......mmmm..... I’m mixing up the nuances...? Pot and kettle? I don’t think we will agree on the point by the sounds of it and I really don’t want to get in an argument . I posted the vid as I find the point interesting that he says it’s piracy, which is an illegal activity. I again suggest that it’s not.


    However I ask again are you a kemper owner or user? Your views do seem to air on the side that the kemper should not really be in existence or be sold as it hurts “real” amp builders ( whatever that is). Just interested.......?

  • MementoMori .......mmmm..... I’m mixing up the nuances...? Pot and kettle? I don’t think we will agree on the point by the sounds of it and I really don’t want to get in an argument . I posted the vid as I find the point interesting that he says it’s piracy, which is an illegal activity. I again suggest that it’s not.


    However I ask again are you a kemper owner or user? Your views do seem to air on the side that the kemper should not really be in existence or be sold as it hurts “real” amp builders ( whatever that is). Just interested.......?

    I'm not calling the kettle black at all. I spelled out my reasoning in the clearest form I know how based on the points voiced to me.


    I own a Kemper and highlighted in my previous 2 posts the reasons I don't think the KPA is entirely a "piracy". I did elucidate the reasons why it could be considered that by some, but even included caveats that's it's not necessarily what I think. Obviously Dave Friedman has a business interest that he feels the Kemper interferes with, hence his judgement may be a bit skewed by his interests. By the same token, I think Kemper users love their Kemper's and it also clouds their judgement about certain things, which is why we get these ungermane rationalizations that Friedman rips off Marshall, etc. People understandably don't like to believe something they're doing may be unethical, but that doesn't mean their logic is without flaw IMO, especially when they appeal to the "he does it too!" type of argument.


    It shouldn't be necessary for me to qualify any of my points with whether or not I own a Kemper. The arguments stand on their own and can be debated on their own merits, absent a need to show some sort of credential.

  • And kemper isn’t a total replica of any amp it profiles?

    No. It isn't.


    It may sound like that amp, but it has less in common with a tube amp than your toaster has with your refrigerator.


    Lookup any patent on any amp on the planet and try to find something Kemper has "pirated".


    Kemper is unique. The design they use is nothing like anything that came before it AFAIK.


    Making the same sound as something else does isn't violating any law. To me, this is no different than Amazon selling digital books on-line for a fraction of the price that hard bound books in a brick and mortar store sell for. Both Kemper and Amazon simply found a better way to do what they do.


    In 1988 Apple sued Microsoft for stealing their "look and feel". The outcome of this case was legendary in that the courts set the precedent that "look and feel" can not be patented. (As an aside it was ironic that Apple sued MS because they literally stole the idea from Xerox).


    Just like you can't patent look and feel, you can't patent a sonic behavior either. If you could, then a zillion VST plug-ins would have gotten sued for sounding exactly like the hardware units they were inspired by.


    IMO, the VST plug-in model is where modern amp makers should be going. Check out Eventide's plug-ins: https://www.eventideaudio.com/products/plugins


    There are literally thousands of VST plugins you can get for free. An Eventide rack mount processor can run you around 5K-8K, but you can get the VST for a few hundred.


    The big difference between Eventide and Kemper is that very few people could make their own VST at home that came even close to an Eventide while nearly anyone can make a profile with Kemper that is nearly indistinguishable from the real thing.

  • How about the comments about the 'grainy top end' with the Kemper they talk about 1:22:30 of the clip. Does anyone else notice this?

    Nope. Some profiles are spikey but with some good profiles, not grainy. My view is Dave is projecting. His buddies protecting. Using his own words, his own analogy, his amps from the JJ-100 with it's AC30 cleans to his guitars is piracy. His first guitars were blatant Fenders style guitars. Lol.