Dave Friedman’s view of kemper.....

Quote from bshaw92

Any A/B should really be Kemper to Interface versus amp/cab/mic to interface otherwise there is some influence.

I think the proper comparison should be to run up and down the stairs with each amp 100 times. The one that makes you pass out first loses

I think that recording the 2 amps is interesting, but for me, the ability to create a very accurate reproduction with a high level of repeatability from the FOH is the big difference. I have had LOTS of variation from my tube amps from different rooms, mics getting bumped, gremlins, little angles, little demons, and God knows what else making my tube amp FOH sound vary wildly.

Quote from ckemper

We had a number of forum threads discussing bad profiling results. Those include the well known topics about profiles being „congested“ or with „cocked wah“.

Unfortunately, we could not proceed to finding the real reasons for the failure, due to lack of responce of the respective users. We either did not receive a revealing audio clip, or if we did, we got no further information about the setup.

I know a couple who took the issue off the forum and emailed support directly until they either stopped receiving responses or were told there was no issue. They moved on at a certain point when they concluded this wasn't about to change. Both sent the requested audio files and info that support asked for, but I can't speak for others who may have gotten frustrated and stopped communicating, which of course happens.

Quote from ckemper

No professional profile maker has ever approached us for profiling problems.

I know a few who hear some shortcomings in profiling but haven't raised it other than in private. I assume there are several reasons:

• Potential to damage a product they are selling
• Insulting potential customers who take critique too personally
• Results are often impressively close, even if not perfect
• No interest to potentially get on Kemper's "bad side" by saying something objectionable

I'll also ad that the 1 person I still communicate with consistently who reached out to Kemper directly in an effort to make profiles more accurate still owns his Kemper. Despite even some of my frustrations, I still own and use my Kemper often. The purpose of this discussion isn't and shouldn't be about "trashing" anything because the KPA is a great piece of kit. It's tantalizingly close to being pristinely accurate and we've brought up inaccuracies, even when small, in a hopeful effort to encourage Kemper to get even more accurate and profile a greater array of tones.

I feel both sides on this and know where Christoph is coming from.

It's really hard to get good beta testers in software development, must be even harder with hardware like the Kemper. It's even more difficult to debug something here because there are so many variables. What sort of mic are you using, what preamp, what cables, is your room treated or not, how much background noise is going on as you're profiling, how did you measure and match your levels, are you using a power soak or anything else in your signal chain, how do you get your DI signal? etc before you even get to the Kemper itself. Most people will get worn out eliminating all the variables, and at some point they're going to be "but now it doesn't sound anything like the sound I wanted to actually capture". People will give up.

There's so much potential user error, so much potential for people who just don't get the difference between amp in room and amp in studio.

At the same time I also feel that there's a slight insinuation that only feedback from pro's making commercial profiles matters. And that doesn't sit well. Obviously it matters if those guys aren't happy, they should be listened to, they know the process inside out. But I feel that my feedback in the thread further down about treble woes is still valid and while it may well end up being user error I still want it to be looked into. I still want to play my part in helping this product be the best it can be because I own a Kemper, I have skin in the game.

Quote from Per

At the same time I also feel that there's a slight insinuation that only feedback from pro's making commercial profiles matters. And that doesn't sit well. Obviously it matters if those guys aren't happy, they should be listened to, they know the process inside out.

Yes x100. My favorite profiles after auditioning thousands upon thousands are more often not commercial. Without attempting to be insulting at all, part of "Kemper culture" in this forum is to fawn over "pros" and what they use. While it's interesting and cool, it's too often brought up in a dismissive manner towards "non-pros" who are just as capable of producing great tones and accruing knowledge.

Quote from Per

I still want to play my part in helping this product be the best it can be because I own a Kemper, I have skin in the game.

Exactly. Same here. I feel like because I point out disparities when people bring in comparisons, I'm viewed like some "hater" or "skeptic". If I really thought anything was that bad, I'd just sell my KPA and never be heard from again.

I think it does boil down to user error though. The Kemper does all the calculations, etc, and usually cops the sound or comes close to it.

Profiling can be done by anyone, but in order to get results as good as the commercial profilers (some of them), you're going to have to have more skin in the game.

From the other thread, I realised what a big mistake I've been making by trying to use plugins for preamps while profiling. After so many failed efforts, I get it: it doesn't work with plugins.

Short of investing in the kind of gear that professional studios have, there really is no way to get the kind of sparkle and definition that most commercial profiles have.

And I think for a lot of us home profilers, that's always going to be disappointing.

Kind of sucks at the same time though. I like the tone I hear on my speakers when micing up the amp and running it through a preamp, etc. Kind of makes me want to try and score a Neve 1073 or an API Vision channel strip.

Just is frustrating when the profiles don't capture the sound you're hearing in the room.

Quote from nightlight

I think it does boil down to user error though. The Kemper does all the calculations, etc, and usually cops the sound or comes close to it.

I guess it's a matter of if there's a consistent character or presence in certain frequencies or not across profiles. Of course there's no accounting for someone poorly mic'ing or setting up their amp. There is the added consideration of direct profiles still exhibiting some of those same characteristics, which is hard to blame the user for.

Quote from nightlight

Short of investing in the kind of gear that professional studios have, there really is no way to get the kind of sparkle and definition that most commercial profiles have.

Plenty of great guitar tones have come from humble tools, so one doesn't need a Neve preamp to achieve sonic bliss. I'd go so far as to say that most of my favorite profiles have been from "bedroom players" who just happened to nail a sound that appeals to me, whether by accident or not. Of course you have to weed through a ton of unusable profiles (for me) to find them. Still, I've spent decent coin on commercial profiles promising fancy mics, preamps, vintage gear, etc, only to throw nearly everything away.

Quote from nightlight

Just is frustrating when the profiles don't capture the sound you're hearing in the room.

Well, a mic'd tone is never going to give you the sound you're hearing (and feeling) in the room. That's just the nature of the beast.

I don't think that preamps are a problem, either software or hardware. Commercial profiles are frequently made using preamps after all (and a whole channel in the mixing desk). Maybe bad (too aggressive) settings on those preamps could be an issue.

Quote from Per

I don't think that preamps are a problem, either software or hardware. Commercial profiles are frequently made using preamps after all (and a whole channel in the mixing desk). Maybe bad (too aggressive) settings on those preamps could be an issue.

DonPetersen told me in another thread that you shouldn't use preamp plugins. I'm not too sure why that is, to be honest.

Here's a clip I recorded of the sound I was getting using my Diezel VH4 through a miced up Emperor cabinet and into my DAW. I used a Neve 1073 preamp plugin (UAD) for this.

And this is a comparison clip I did using a free VH4 profile on the rig exchange.

I prefer my own miced up clip, though I agree it could use a bit more brightness. But when I tried to profile, all I got was a buzzy mess.

Quote from MementoMori

I guess it's a matter of if there's a consistent character or presence in certain frequencies or not across profiles. Of course there's no accounting for someone poorly mic'ing or setting up their amp. There is the added consideration of direct profiles still exhibiting some of those same characteristics, which is hard to blame the user for.

Plenty of great guitar tones have come from humble tools, so one doesn't need a Neve preamp to achieve sonic bliss. I'd go so far as to say that most of my favorite profiles have been from "bedroom players" who just happened to nail a sound that appeals to me, whether by accident or not. Of course you have to weed through a ton of unusable profiles (for me) to find them. Still, I've spent decent coin on commercial profiles promising fancy mics, preamps, vintage gear, etc, only to throw nearly everything away.

Well, a mic'd tone is never going to give you the sound you're hearing (and feeling) in the room. That's just the nature of the beast.

That's something I have been hearing too when I scroll through various profiles of an amp on the rig exchange. They all have a certain character for sure. I've put it down to the fact that all the amps of a certain make have the same circuit. This must be why there is a distinct similarity to all the profiles. The only real difference is the way the cab has been miced and what preamp was used.

I use a lot of free profiles too, like the famous Morgan AC20 profile. But they are far and few between.

I'm not looking for an amp in the room sound, I am looking to basically nail down the sound I am hearing over my studio monitors or headphones. Haven't been able to cop them yet, and as Kemper Amps indicated that the plugins I am using are responsible, I am kind of sunk.

Was just checking out the prices for a 1073.... Over $2k. Not getting one anytime soon, that's for sure.

nightlight There are plenty of 1073 clones or inspired pres for a lot less than the real thing though. Golden Age Audio Project Pre73 is inly a few hundred pounds and always seems to get great reviews.

Quote from nightlight

DonPetersen told me in another thread that you shouldn't use preamp plugins. I'm not too sure why that is, to be honest.

like I said in the other thread, a preamp can be a source of additional compression/saturation, and a modeled preamp can actually not reflect analog reality, for which the profiling process was designed.

Quote from DonPetersen

like I said in the other thread, a preamp can be a source of additional compression/saturation, and a modeled preamp can actually not reflect analog reality, for which the profiling process was designed.

Succinct. Thanks, Don.

Quote from Wheresthedug

nightlight There are plenty of 1073 clones or inspired pres for a lot less than the real thing though. Golden Age Audio Project Pre73 is inly a few hundred pounds and always seems to get great reviews.

That's a great idea, Alan. I'll look into some of those.

Quote from nightlight

That's something I have been hearing too when I scroll through various profiles of an amp on the rig exchange. They all have a certain character for sure. I've put it down to the fact that all the amps of a certain make have the same circuit. This must be why there is a distinct similarity to all the profiles. The only real difference is the way the cab has been miced and what preamp was used.

Well yeah, amp circuits are quite similar to begin with, though I wouldn't say the only real differences are how they're mic'd. Plus, even those nuances of character are very important. But I was more referring to hearing similar characteristics in profiles when compared to their source. I'm really not trying to go back down the rabbit hole but if it's a common theme, then we can't just chalk it up to user error.

With regards any "sameness" of profiles. I think - yes, many amps come from a limited few fender circuits. But also some amps depend on crossover distortion which I heard the Kemper doesn't do (5150 EVH Brown sound, some tiny blues amps). Some signature sounds are a combination of pre and power amp distortion and the Kemper doesn't do that combination. And finally I have those problems in my other thread about treble and I believe that stuff is actually very important for differences in sonic signature between amps, because although the differences between amps are subtle they're largely in the transient and top end, the "detail" of a distortion waveform occurs from the sum of all frequencies, something that clips hard needs harmonic frequencies above 7k to give it that signature crisp square waveform for instance. Oh and I truly believe the natural verb of the room/cab needs to be captured too to complete the picture, if for no other reason than that the speaker and cab are two separate components.

nightlight - Have you tried making a profile without your pre-amps to see whether they actually are the source of the problem for you?

When I first tried making profiles years ago when the Kemper first came out I made a few beginners errors that resulted in a few questions that may or may not help you :

How are you comparing how it sounds? I highly recommend recording a DI track to use to re-amp through both the profile and the amp (and record both re-amps then compare them) rather than simply playing both, which will never exactly match up. Of course the converse is also true, don't send a DI to the amp while you're playing back the re-amp signals because you won't hear them over the amp in your room.

Are you profiling in the same room as your monitoring system? If so are you sure to turn off your monitors during the profiling process? The Kemper outputs the signal to all outputs meaning your monitors will also be playing it back, throwing off the profile so it's important to turn these off.

How close is your mic to the speaker? How lively is your room? The Kemper basically only does mic on the grill "close mic'd" sounds because it doesn't capture the rooms reverb. Move it up close and use a convolution verb or one of the inbuilt verbs to try and give it that sends of distant mic'd sound if that's the case, or bring back the effects from a more lively room.

Did you try refining? These days the profiling algorithm is much improved, back when I first started profiling I had to refine for a good ten minutes to get a profile close. That shouldn't be the case anymore but there's always the exception to the rule.

Does your sound have both pre and power-amp distortion in it? If so then the Kemper won't be able to capture it well. It does either pre-amp or power-amp, but not both together. Personally I would opt to use the power-amp distortion profile and a distortion stomp to recreate your sound in the Kemper, unless it's a super-high gain setting in which case I'd simply eliminate the power amp distortion and go for pre because that will result in a tighter sound.

Do you have reverb enabled on your amp (or any other effect)? If so then turn that stuff off and add it back in afterwards in the Kemper via stomps. It'll smear the profile otherwise.

Quote from Per

I highly recommend recording a DI track to use to re-amp through both the profile and the amp (and record both re-amps then compare them) rather than simply playing both, which will never exactly match up.

Very good point, Per

Regarding your statement with close vs far mics ... you're spot on when it comes to comparisons but in general the far mics' "colour" translates to the profile, just its room/time component gets lost.

Cheers

Martin

Quote from nightlight

Short of investing in the kind of gear that professional studios have, there really is no way to get the kind of sparkle and definition that most commercial profiles have.

And I think for a lot of us home profilers, that's always going to be disappointing.

Some time ago I had the opportunity to visit Michael Britt and he took me to his place where he does his profiling.

Report is here: http://nermark.com/reports/MBr…les/MBritt%20profiles.htm

What I saw really surprised me. The speaker was placed in a very large room with just two screens shielding it from the room reflections. The microphones were a Shure SM57 and a FatHead (IIRC) going through a inexpensive Mackie mixer. And as I consider Mike's profiles being the best commercial profiles, this shows you do not need fancy expensive equipment to profile.

I think some of my profiles are very usable and some of them were captured at home with just a SM57 going straight into the KPA. And I've helped friends make good profiles in their homes (dens, kitchens, man caves, basements, garages, etc.) with very modest equipment so I know first hand that it's possible.

Cheers and happy profiling!

Mats N

Quote from Mats_Nermark

I think some of my profiles are very usable and some of them were captured at home with just a SM57 going straight into the KPA.

I've done the same and had more satisfying results than nearly every commercial profile I've tried. That's of course my own bias, but it's lead to less auditioning and messing around and more playing/creating.

Quote from DeeBoughton

I haven't checked the trademark search system on the U.S. Patent and Trademark office website, but I'd be willing to bet that Friedman has his name and all of the names of the amps he produces trademarked. If a profiler is using Mr. Friedman's trademarked names, then you can bet his attorneys will be going after the ingringers. I've heard some stories of specific and very prominent profilers who have received some nasty "cease and desist" letters from some very well known amp builders to stop using trademarked names. Suhr comes to mind.

I would agree with Mr. Friedman or any other trademark owner if their trademark is being infringed, but I don't think the use of a trademark is the real issue after watching the video. Just my take.

Quote from DeeBoughton

I haven't checked the trademark search system on the U.S. Patent and Trademark office website, but I'd be willing to bet that Friedman has his name and all of the names of the amps he produces trademarked. If a profiler is using Mr. Friedman's trademarked names, then you can bet his attorneys will be going after the ingringers. I've heard some stories of specific and very prominent profilers who have received some nasty "cease and desist" letters from some very well known amp builders to stop using trademarked names. Suhr comes to mind.

I would agree with Mr. Friedman or any other trademark owner if their trademark is being infringed, but I don't think the use of a trademark is the real issue after watching the video. Just my take.

I have to chuckle.

John Suhr was one of the 17 guitar companies that opposed the Fender Trademark applications in the US Trademark Trial and Appeal Court in 2004.

Tom Anderson was another, etc, etc.

In 2009 the Court ruled against Fender and for the 17 opposers, which is why John Suhr and every other guitar builder in the world can make Strats , Teles and the P-Bass shapes.

Now he's sending Cease & Desist letters.

These amp builders should be paying commercial Profilers to use the actual name of their amps in their Profile name...it's the best free advertising they could ever hope for and chances are the free advertising increases their amp sales.

The owners manual that came with my first Line 6 Pod I bought in 1996 had a photo of every amp modelled using the actual name of the amp...Line 6 have never had a lawsuit filed against them by any amp manufacturer.

The Kemper has made Dave Friedman more famous than he was prior to the Kemper being released, he shouldn't be complaining he should be thanking CK. .

Quote from Guitartone

These amp builders should be paying commercial Profilers to use the actual name of their amps in their Profile name...it's the best free advertising they could ever hope for and chances are the free advertising increases their amp sales.

While undoubtedly some good profiles may have encouraged people to buy amps they wouldn't have thought to buy before, the KPA has also lead to many here saying they sold all their tube amps after getting the KPA. That certainly doesn't help their bottom line. And likewise, what if a profile was mic'd poorly and someone attributes that to not liking the amp, so never buys it or gives it another look? It does cut both ways.

Quote from Guitartone

The Kemper has made Dave Friedman more famous than he was prior to the Kemper being released, he shouldn't be complaining he should be thanking CK. .

Eh, maybe. Regardless, his feelings based on what affects his trademark (name) and bottom line is what chiefly concerns him and other builders.

Quote from Mats_Nermark

I think some of my profiles are very usable and some of them were captured at home with just a SM57 going straight into the KPA.

Mats N

I had the same experience as MementoMori. Often the profile has been better with the microphone going direct to the Kemper and bypassing a preamp.

Quote from Per

When I first tried making profiles years ago when the Kemper first came out I made a few beginners errors that resulted in a few questions that may or may not help you :

How are you comparing how it sounds? I highly recommend recording a DI track to use to re-amp through both the profile and the amp (and record both re-amps then compare them) rather than simply playing both, which will never exactly match up. Of course the converse is also true, don't send a DI to the amp while you're playing back the re-amp signals because you won't hear them over the amp in your room.

Are you profiling in the same room as your monitoring system? If so are you sure to turn off your monitors during the profiling process? The Kemper outputs the signal to all outputs meaning your monitors will also be playing it back, throwing off the profile so it's important to turn these off.

How close is your mic to the speaker? How lively is your room? The Kemper basically only does mic on the grill "close mic'd" sounds because it doesn't capture the rooms reverb. Move it up close and use a convolution verb or one of the inbuilt verbs to try and give it that sends of distant mic'd sound if that's the case, or bring back the effects from a more lively room.

Did you try refining? These days the profiling algorithm is much improved, back when I first started profiling I had to refine for a good ten minutes to get a profile close. That shouldn't be the case anymore but there's always the exception to the rule.

Does your sound have both pre and power-amp distortion in it? If so then the Kemper won't be able to capture it well. It does either pre-amp or power-amp, but not both together. Personally I would opt to use the power-amp distortion profile and a distortion stomp to recreate your sound in the Kemper, unless it's a super-high gain setting in which case I'd simply eliminate the power amp distortion and go for pre because that will result in a tighter sound.

Do you have reverb enabled on your amp (or any other effect)? If so then turn that stuff off and add it back in afterwards in the Kemper via stomps. It'll smear the profile otherwise.

Display More

I unfortunately have to run my amps in the same room that I am monitoring in, so I am usually wearing headphones to tweak and then audition. I also A/B using the monitors after profiling is done. The monitors are always turned down during the profiling process because of the possibility of the microphone picking up the sound. I always close mic, for the kind of music and tones I'm trying to create, I don't want to have any room sound at all. I have tried refining, sometimes it makes the profiles closer, sometimes they become worse. I'm aware of the problems with profiling a cranked amp with both the pre and power tubes cooking, so I usually avoid that. Most of the amps I own don't have a reverb.

Honestly, I think all the problems I've been having have been on account of the preamp plugins I've been using. Didn't think it would be an issue, but now I know that it's probably the source of all my trouble.

I miced up my Mesa Boogie Mark V:25 today and just played around with micing.

Basically, the results aren't half bad, so the micing technique and other variables can be ruled out. It's got to be the plugins (which I used on this recording as well.

Quote from Mats_Nermark

Some time ago I had the opportunity to visit Michael Britt and he took me to his place where he does his profiling.

Report is here: http://nermark.com/reports/MBr…les/MBritt%20profiles.htm

What I saw really surprised me. The speaker was placed in a very large room with just two screens shielding it from the room reflections. The microphones were a Shure SM57 and a FatHead (IIRC) going through a inexpensive Mackie mixer. And as I consider Mike's profiles being the best commercial profiles, this shows you do not need fancy expensive equipment to profile.

I think some of my profiles are very usable and some of them were captured at home with just a SM57 going straight into the KPA. And I've helped friends make good profiles in their homes (dens, kitchens, man caves, basements, garages, etc.) with very modest equipment so I know first hand that it's possible.

Cheers and happy profiling!

Mats N

Display More

That is very interesting Mats, thanks. I will try to create a profile tomorrow morning and see what I can come up with if I don't use a preamp.

Quote from MementoMori

Well yeah, amp circuits are quite similar to begin with, though I wouldn't say the only real differences are how they're mic'd. Plus, even those nuances of character are very important. But I was more referring to hearing similar characteristics in profiles when compared to their source. I'm really not trying to go back down the rabbit hole but if it's a common theme, then we can't just chalk it up to user error.

I know exactly what you're talking about. Others have argued about it before. FWIW, I seem to notice it more on high gain profiles than low gain ones, and that's a common argument that you'll hear about high gain amps as well: that they all sound the same.