Dave Friedman’s view of kemper.....


  • I unfortunately have to run my amps in the same room that I am monitoring in, so I am usually wearing headphones to tweak and then audition. I also A/B using the monitors after profiling is done. The monitors are always turned down during the profiling process because of the possibility of the microphone picking up the sound. I always close mic, for the kind of music and tones I'm trying to create, I don't want to have any room sound at all. I have tried refining, sometimes it makes the profiles closer, sometimes they become worse. I'm aware of the problems with profiling a cranked amp with both the pre and power tubes cooking, so I usually avoid that. Most of the amps I own don't have a reverb.


    Honestly, I think all the problems I've been having have been on account of the preamp plugins I've been using. Didn't think it would be an issue, but now I know that it's probably the source of all my trouble.


    I miced up my Mesa Boogie Mark V:25 today and just played around with micing.



    Basically, the results aren't half bad, so the micing technique and other variables can be ruled out. It's got to be the plugins (which I used on this recording as well.


    That is very interesting Mats, thanks. I will try to create a profile tomorrow morning and see what I can come up with if I don't use a preamp.


    Well yeah, amp circuits are quite similar to begin with, though I wouldn't say the only real differences are how they're mic'd. Plus, even those nuances of character are very important. But I was more referring to hearing similar characteristics in profiles when compared to their source. I'm really not trying to go back down the rabbit hole but if it's a common theme, then we can't just chalk it up to user error.


    I know exactly what you're talking about. Others have argued about it before. FWIW, I seem to notice it more on high gain profiles than low gain ones, and that's a common argument that you'll hear about high gain amps as well: that they all sound the same.

  • I think the Kemper team would be greatly assisted in making their own set of videos on proper profiling techniques. If these common issues are just "user error", then Kemper would greatly help out its customer base. This would also provide a chance to demonstrate methods they deem erroneous (like using software preamps) and explain why, perhaps comparing to a better solution. Likewise, compare commonly heard inaccuracies like the "TS", "cocked wah" effect in high gain profiles to a method the Kemper was designed for that makes profiles more accurate.


    Considering how many variable the KPA allows for in profiling, and considering how often issues are chalked up to "user error", having the conversation basically stop there isn't very helpful, especially if the company already has a particular method in mind to achieve more accurate results. Kinda crazy to me that the Kemper Tutorials channel on YouTube has nothing about actual profiling, which is the core of the device.


    Everyone I've spoken to who has had a greater degree of difficulty achieving more accurate profiles and spoken to Kemper about it has been left frustrated with little to no answers. Basically just turns into trial and error to try and figure something out. And in a way team Kemper is in a frustrating situation of having to consider a ton of different variables and environments when answering questions. I think that's why, if they company wants to bring up user error, it must mean there is an exact method they feel isn't being followed. Even down to refining. What helps refine what under different circumstances? What doesn't help? The only direction I've seen on that end is from Uwe Bossert in the Tim Pierce video where he tells him to play "weird chords".


    For my part, I've done it the stupid simple way and still experience those inaccuracies.

  • Looking back at the video in the original post, what strikes me the most is the reference to piracy, which opens up the whole can of worms on the morals of profiling amps. That youtube guy, EytschPi42, went on a similar train of thought a few years ago.


    I don't know, it's easy to feel bad for the boutique amp makers, but at the end of the day, nobody owes them a living. I don't think you 'own' a sound or tone because you built an amp that generates it and I don't think it's right trying to guilt people out of buying the new technologies that provide greater convenience and variety.


    As someone who went for the Kemper instead of a traditional amp for volume considerations, if there was no profiling amp, I would have bought some kind of tube amp; and possibly more than one eventually, but so what? Friedman should get with the program and bring out some gear that emulates a bunch of mooer pedals, or something.

  • The way I see it, if the traditional builders didn't see this coming and adapt to leverage what pros have been saying for years about modern tech, then it's their business call. The only option for them is doubling down on their old technology to try to stand out.


    I feel for them, but for the most part I don't think there's been much invention in the tube amp space for many years. The IP is just out there and a bunch of boutique builders tweak the basic designs.

  • I don't think there's been much invention in the tube amp space for many years. The IP is just out there and a bunch of boutique builders tweak the basic designs.

    There’s only so much one can do with the basic design players want and expect. That said, amp builders have come out with direct outputs, cab emulated outs, multiple watt options, built-in-effects, and a slew of smaller innovations to keep the tube amp up with other digital options. There have certainly been efforts but it’s by nature more limited than a KPA.

  • Looking back at the video in the original post, what strikes me the most is the reference to piracy, which opens up the whole can of worms on the morals of profiling amps. That youtube guy, EytschPi42, went on a similar train of thought a few years ago.

    Being as a cabinet often contributes more of the tone than an amp, do amplifier manufacturers owe something to the speaker. The argument has gone on ever since samplers were supposed to put classical musicians out of work.


  • You can tell by some actual threads on this forum that me and my company do care about profiling issues.

    And you can trace that, after several days of communication, we still have no valuable comparison clips, where we can make a clear statement. This is quite a time consuming business. We were only able to resolve a handful of cases, due to lacking proper A/B clips.


    I always ask for clips in public, so we can discuss and solve the problem in public. I never send users to our support for these topics.


    Beside the complaints, do we have heard clips from you yet?


    It would also be helpful to send a link to those „cold cases“, so we can do a follow up. I have mentioned this numerous times a couple weeks ago and even before, but no one came up. Now I am answering on a thread, where people know people with problems, but no single clip yet.


    Talking about a profiling video: our profiling guide exists since many years, merely unchanged.

    All constraints for the signal flow including multiple distortion, compression or noise gates are mentioned since then. I doubt that producing a video with the same content will lead to better profiles. We cannot anticipate every type of equipment being used and give a recommendation for or against it.

    If someone utilizes a sophisticated tool such as a software preamp and the profiling fails, I think it‘s fair to expect said user to bypass it for the next run and see if profiling works, and draw conclusions from the outcome.


    I have replied to your posts a couple times now. I would ask you to show up or link to a specific case. This would make you look less like a troll.


  • By simply bypassing your software channel strips for a minute you could have tested that they do no good for profiling.

    Why would channel strips make profiles better? I am sure professional profiles only required a good microphone placement and a bit of EQ. But ask the pros, they know better.


    And of course channel strips will work in the signal chain. But at least you will have to deactivate compressors included.


    In any case, profiles will never catch what you hear in the room, they will only catch what comes from the microphone, unfortunately. That‘s physics, even in with the pros.

  • I am sure professional profiles only required a good microphone placement and a bit of EQ.

    This! I've done a fair bit of profiling over the years and I have yet to run into any of the "issues" reported on this forum every once in a while. I think the thread you're currently trying to help in (figure out what's going on) must be the most confusing one ever. I downloaded the audio clips and read the entire thread and still don't get my head around what he's doing (and why).


    I for one usually profile amps using 2 microphones. These go through high quality preamps and are sent back (slightly EQ'd and mixed) with line level to the Return Input of the Profiler. The Return Level on the Profiler is typically set to -25dB.


    The profiling results are great to say the least. Every once in a while I use the Profiler's options to further shape the sound but when I do, it's not to improve the "accuracy" of the profile but to shape the sound the way I want. For example High Shift and Low Shift in the Cab block … very small changes can go a long way. But most of the time I don't do any tweaking.

  • I have replied to your posts a couple times now. I would ask you to show up or link to a specific case. This would make you look less like a troll.

    I am actually working on a comparison of my profiles, but I have limited methods and time to execute them, so I can’t readily do so at the exact moment. For my band’s album, I made profiles of all the reamped tones to make that comparison under the same environment.


    Regardless, the things I brought up aren’t new. They’ve been discussed and demonstrated in many past threads and a couple years ago it especially reached a fever pitch where most participants were either banned or chased from the forum.


    Not sure what I’m doing to troll. I’ve not been unreasonable or insulting, nor have I engaged in any hostility. What purpose would there be in it? What would I stand to gain from wasting time trolling over something as simple as a guitar amp?

  • I am actually working on a comparison of my profiles, but I have limited methods and time to execute them, so I can’t readily do so at the exact moment. For my band’s album, I made profiles of all the reamped tones to make that comparison under the same environment.


    Regardless, the things I brought up aren’t new. They’ve been discussed and demonstrated in many past threads and a couple years ago it especially reached a fever pitch where most participants were either banned or chased from the forum.


    Not sure what I’m doing to troll. I’ve not been unreasonable or insulting, nor have I engaged in any hostility. What purpose would there be in it? What would I stand to gain from wasting time trolling over something as simple as a guitar amp?

    I didn't have you down for a troll, but sometimes it seems like people are demanding a lot from a small company trying to get our latest update through with an editor.


    What about simply putting your phone up and recording the process you use for profiling. Maybe there is an easy mistake to spot and this would help many people. Whenever a profile has not sounded right, I have been back a few times and worked out the issue. Only direct profiles are less accurate for me.


    Also I generally ignore the refining process and only try that if the profile doesn't come up to scratch.


  • I just tried the other day without the preamp and the profiles are definitely better than the ones with the preamp.


    However, the volume was incredibly low, I have no idea what's going on.


    Regarding the preamp plugins, I mainly use them for the EQ section. There's no compression section on a 1073 either, so the issue seems to be with the software not playing nicely with the Kemper modelling algorithm.


    Other profilers have indicated that they use preamps before the Kemper as well, which is why I thought it was the done thing.


    I'll try and put together some comparison clips for you over the weekend, it would be good if you can help troubleshoot.

  • I didn't have you down for a troll, but sometimes it seems like people are demanding a lot from a small company trying to get our latest update through with an editor.


    What about simply putting your phone up and recording the process you use for profiling. Maybe there is an easy mistake to spot and this would help many people. Whenever a profile has not sounded right, I have been back a few times and worked out the issue. Only direct profiles are less accurate for me.


    Also I generally ignore the refining process and only try that if the profile doesn't come up to scratch.

    I mean, I never made a demand of anything. My video idea, at least to me, seemed pretty uncontroversial as a suggestion. I could record my profiling process, but it’s literally the Kemper direct out into the front of the amp and a single SM57 back into the Kemper. It’s the most basic and straightforward way of profiling per Kemper’s manual.

  • That’s interesting as I find I almost always need to refine profiles but after doing so they are indistinguishable from the source.

    Yep same here Wheresthedug , while refining I also switch to all the pickup positions (as suggested by another member somewhere else on this forum) and doing solo and chord work all the way up the neck. This seams to pick up ALL the dynamic ranges of the amp in question.


    I also use the Kemper DI box for direct profiles.


    My 50+ year old *cough* ears find the profiles to be 99.999% accurate if not 100%. However I do not use high gain amps so I cannot comment there.


    Just my opinion though :)


  • For sure you can use pre amps or channel strips during profiling, in hardware or software, for equalizing your amp. But if a channel strip causes the profiling to fail, we must suspect a hidden „ear-candy“, a compressor or something else not under your control. Have you tried another equalizer from your DAW that doesn‘t call itself pre amp?


    It‘s fine when you post comparison clips, but i am afraid that this time it wouldn‘t help analyzing it, because you cannot hear the existence of a compressor by the outcome of a profile.


    Does your preamp plugin alter the sound, when all controls are set to neutral?

  • Sorry Mods...back on topic.


    Now about Mr Friedman’s view :/........


    :D

    Who cares about what he thinks about the Kemper, however MR. Friedman has some amazing ears to come up with the amps and pedal tones he came up with (borrowed from Marshall or whatever, who cares), I am a lucky owners of few of his inventions and they're definitely the best of the best. Kemper also makes an amazing product.


    If few can't see that or appreciate what they got and how to use it. it's just that, some people you're not going to reach no matter how simple or complex you make a product, There will always be an exception to anything, and that's just that, I'll spare you the details of those who don't read the manual and those who do but insist on doing the opposite then come to the forum and rant about their findings that were already spelled out in the manual, if they had really read or cared to follow or appreciate the manual or any rule (physical and scientific rules and laws included)

  • For sure you can use pre amps or channel strips during profiling, in hardware or software, for equalizing your amp. But if a channel strip causes the profiling to fail, we must suspect a hidden „ear-candy“, a compressor or something else not under your control. Have you tried another equalizer from your DAW that doesn‘t call itself pre amp?


    It‘s fine when you post comparison clips, but i am afraid that this time it wouldn‘t help analyzing it, because you cannot hear the existence of a compressor by the outcome of a profile.


    Does your preamp plugin alter the sound, when all controls are set to neutral?


    I don't think there's much of a change, other than making the sound a bit louder. I usually use the EQ controls in order to sculpt the sound in a way that makes them sound great on my monitors.


    But after profiling, it always sounds very brittle, so it's likely there's something funny going on when it comes to the resultant profile.


    I'll try using just a regular EQ next time, hopefully that will do the trick!