Lack of PUNCH using monitor out and power amp/cab.

  • Greetings fellow KPA'ers!


    I'm trying to find a solution for monitoring my KPA with a 1X12 combo amp. It's a Mesa Boogie F50 retrofitted with an EVM12L. It's a great grab-n-go combo for small/medium sized venues and also functions as a back up amp if the KPA fails.


    I connect the KPA to the F50 effects return, bypassing the amp's front panel controls and using it as a power amp/cabinet.


    My goal is to have the best of both worlds; a great KPA tone to the mains and a great "amp-in-room" tone for monitoring through the F50.


    The problem is that I find this setup has significantly less "punch" than the real amps I own. Especially on the light to medium overdrive sounds. I'm curious where that punch is getting lost.


    Do mics compress the original dynamic range of the amp/speaker? Is it lost during the profiling process?


    Could it be because the KPA "Monitor Cab Off" selection doesn't really remove 100% of the speaker profile?


    Has anyone else noticed this and found a solution?


    ?(

  • Hmm that's strange.. Have you tried using any of the DI profiles?


    The goal is to NOT use DI profiles...it's to use the setup as described.


    So unfortunately that isn't something that will solve the problem...thanks for the response though!


    The questions still remain...


    Do mics compress the original dynamic range of the amp/speaker?


    Could it be because the KPA "Monitor Cab Off" selection doesn't really remove 100% of the speaker profile (causing compression)?


    Maybe it's an "engineer" level question of the dynamic range difference between the original amp and the profiled amp. Hmmmm.

  • Sorry for the misunderstanding. The reason I suggested it, was because you are using your F50's power amp. That would mean you might want to take cab+mic profiling out of the equation, by using a DI profile.


    All I know is that different mics can have an effect on the perceived punch, for instance SM58 has less punch than SM57 in my experience (probably due to the pop-filter). Big bands often put their amps under the stage, while monitoring the mic'ed signal. The punch remains, which suggests a good mic is chosen, among other things of course. ;) As you mention, the 'left-over' from the cab+mic profile could be killing the punch.


    When I monitor the KPA through my stage wedges, I do get the punch but I have not tried it with an actual poweramp+cab.


    One other thing; are you using a closed-back cab? Otherwise that might be (part of) the problem.

  • I have experienced this too and I'm pretty sure it's because "Monitor Cab Off" doesn't remove 100% of the cab from the rig. I haven't found a solution. I think the only real solution will be a firmware upgrade that allows us to completely disable the cab on the monitor output while retaining it on the main outs. As far as I know that has not been promised though.


  • F50 is a parrellel loop, and it is not possibly to completely return 100 percent from memory. I loved the clean on the F50, hated the drive and HATED the FX loop. it sucked. I wonder if you would get better results going into the front of the amp, making sure to disable all cab and stuff??

  • You need to use a DI profile really as part of the cab is definitely part of the amp profile even with the cab switched off. You can hear this more than ever on some of the clean profiles where the amp part of the profile without the cab has a sort of hollow sound. Use a direct profile and that will solve the problem. I doubt that the integral power amp will make a difference as it's just another power amp and will only amplify what you give it !

  • Using the KPA to capture DI profiles does NOT work well IMHO. The difference between the original signal and the unrefined/refined profile is HUGE. Not a solution I'm afraid.


    I was really hoping that the KPA would work effectively as a preamp profiling device, but it colors the original signal and dynamics way too much. You can tell it's trying to "smooth out" the direct signal.


    I've included an example on my soundcloud page.


    http://soundcloud.com/johnny-n…-marshall-jmp-direct-test


    The amp is a Marshall JMP using a direct box connected to the speaker output of the amp. On the clip I played a similar riff four times and captured the results follows:


    #1 Reference amp pre-profile
    #2 Reference amp post-profile (why it's so much louder I have no clue)
    #3 KPA pre-refine
    #4 KPA post-refine

  • I have experienced this too and I'm pretty sure it's because "Monitor Cab Off" doesn't remove 100% of the cab from the rig. I haven't found a solution. I think the only real solution will be a firmware upgrade that allows us to completely disable the cab on the monitor output while retaining it on the main outs. As far as I know that has not been promised though.


    I think you're right. That can definitely be a big part of the problem.

  • hi chameleon,


    My goal is to have the best of both worlds; a great KPA tone to the mains and a great "amp-in-room" tone for monitoring through the F50.


    this is exactly what i am trying to do as well. i played once a show with a preamp only and i could not even hear me because of the .... mixer. never again.


    i have played a lot of small clubs with a drumer with brushes only and i used my korgA4 before a transistor ibanez and strangely enough, that worked well.
    later i had a soldano and the korg sounded terrible, either before the amp or in the loop. fortunately the hot rod was so classy that with the volume knob
    i could have three different sounds. anyway. this is the reason why i ― to this very day ― have always the same problem that you have.


    but with the KPA it is not much better. i own a super marshall with no master (jtm-45) which sounds beautiful and has a MONSTER PUNCH you havent heard.
    this is gone. not only is the sound very harsh, which i hope to solve by deactivating the cab sim, the punch also is gone with the wind. and it does not matter, whether
    i use my 4x12 or my very good egnater 1x12. :wacko:


    if you solve this problem, please give me a notice


    kind regards

    My occupation: showing teenagers the many hidden secrets of the A-minor chord on the guitar.

  • Sometimes it's just too low volume. When we don't hear enough highs with a real amp, we crank it further up until we can hear what the amp want's to tell. With modelers that are capable of delivering plenty of highs, we turn highs and presence up, but that keeps us away from cranking the volume. I believe that the highs that we need for recordings are too much for a cranked up livesound. Think about it. I'd lower the presence and the highs on your place to get more punch. My 2c.

  • Well i use kemper monitor out to Adam a7 and the kemper direct out to a art sla 1 power amp (that is conected to the speaker of my jsx combo 2x12) but i still have a huge Punch and it and the best of both worlds. 8|

  • Sometimes it's just too low volume. When we don't hear enough highs with a real amp, we crank it further up until we can hear what the amp want's to tell. With modelers that are capable of delivering plenty of highs, we turn highs and presence up, but that keeps us away from cranking the volume. I believe that the highs that we need for recordings are too much for a cranked up livesound. Think about it. I'd lower the presence and the highs on your place to get more punch. My 2c.


    That is an excellent point and usually true...but in this case (at least for me) it's not.


    I've used both poweramp/cab and FRFR rigs side-by-side at comparable volumes to my real amp in the room. It's just not the same (not even close IMO). I assume this would be the case with all modeler/sims, not just the KPA.


    Did you listen to the clips I provided? When using a poweramp/cab rig to monitor, it seems to me that the problem could be a combination of two things:


    1. If using the KPA with an "Amp" profile (cab included), it does not produce a realistic true preamp sound when the cab is turned off.
    2. If using the KPA with a "Direct" profile, the profiling process colors the tone too much and does not provide an accurate reproduction of the original preamp sound.


    I think the KPA is a revolutionary product that does it's primary job extremely well; which is to accurately recreate the sound of any amp mic'd. It achieves it's purpose with flying colors.


    However, since buying it I didn't realize how important "amp-in-room" tone is to me. Maybe I just have to settle for not having both.

  • Ciao! I believe that what you are reporting is strongly related to the discover we made in the thread


    'CLEAN AMPLIFIER: the Kemper Amplifier models are exactly the same between ALL the profiles'
    The differences in tone and charateristic are all modeled in the Cab part.


    Due to this behaviour the option CAB off for the Monitor OUT have less sense, because it takes off also some important caratheristic of the preamp itself, so to maintain the same sound in the monitoring, it's better to leave Cab ON and use an FRFR speaker.


    This is true for sure for the Clean ones, we have to do some tests to understand if this is also true for the distorted ones...


    Maurizio



  • By using the monitor output and "CabOff" technically the dynamics are all preserved, but the frequency responce changes.
    You should find an appropriate setting with the 4 band monitor equalizer that is placed in the Master/Output section.
    Using that EQ is mandatory, as we cannot anticipate what cabinet you are using on stage.


    We will work on some better ways to get the amp in the room sound in the future.
    For now this is the way to go, and many people find good results.


    Tell me what you think.


  • Please repeat this profile, since this attempt went obviously wrong.
    The volume difference is weird.
    Direct profiles usualy work as well as profiles with cab.