Tube Power Amp

    It depends on what you like to hear. A tube amp will add a certain colour to your sound plus you're doubling the effect of a tube amp because most profiles already have the tube-sound baked in during the profiling process (in case a tube amp is profiled). But there sure are Kemper owners who use a tube amp for amplification. If it sounds good, it is good.

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

    Like 3

    If you have the option try both and see what sounds better to your ears. I tried the power rack vs unpowered with engl e840/50 and tube poweramp has more balls and overall sounds better to me.

    A great way to use a tube power amp is when using rigs that were just pre-amps. For example, if you profiled using the direct out from an amp, used the "send" output from an amp, used an amp sim pedal/rack unit (such as Tech21 products, Acoustic Preamp pedals, Bass DI boxes, etc). Then using a tube power amp would be a great platform.

    I notice a certain three-dimensionality and thrust when using my power station (especially when cranked) that just isn't there when I use my FRFR... most of the time its unnecessary (as pointed out) as the valve color is already there in spades and some profiles seem to enjoy it while others don't. Just another tool in the arsenal (if I might be allowed to mix a few metaphors).

    The older I get, the better I was.

    Like 3
    Quote from drog

    A great way to use a tube power amp is when using rigs that were just pre-amps. For example, if you profiled using the direct out from an amp, used the "send" output from an amp, used an amp sim pedal/rack unit (such as Tech21 products, Acoustic Preamp pedals, Bass DI boxes, etc). Then using a tube power amp would be a great platform.


    That’s a totally valid point drog. I actually tested it the other way recently byt profiling my Mesa 2:ninety power amp and sending the real Triaxis through the Kemper. One side of the TA went into the profiled power amp and the other into the real one. They were indistinguishable. It follows that doing the opposite (pre amp profle only onto real poweramp) should also yield excellent results.

    You can profile almost any preamp as long as it has a serial effects loop. Just take the loop's send output and profile that.


    Wheresthedug, can you please describe the method and hardware you used to profile the Mesa 2:90 ?


    I've profiled my Rectifier Recording Preamp, but I'd also like to profile my 20/20 by itself. I can't figure out what signal I'd send to the amp. After all, you can't just plug a guitar directly into a power amp.

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    The 2:ninety actually has a Line/Instrument level switch.

    Aha! So you can plug a guitar directly into the 2:90!


    I have some questions about your signal chain. You said:


    Quote

    I made 8 profiles of my 2:ninety connected to a Mesa 112 Thiele cab with an old '90's EVM12L in it. I used a cheap ART Z Direct passive DI box between amp and cab. I'm sure they would sound even better with a Kemper DI or Countryman but that ART did the job.


    The signal chain went Kemper Direct Out > 2:ninety In set to Instrument level rather than line level as the signal from Kemper should be similar to a guitar hitting the amp.


    Can I conclude that you are making a direct amp profile because you put a DI between the 2:90 and the cab? I have a Kemper DI :) , so I can make a great DAP.

    The 20/20 doesn't have a line/instrument level switch. However I can use my Radial X-Amp box to do the conversion from line to instrument level.


    So my signal chain would look like this:


    Guitar --> Kemper Direct Out --> X-Amp --> 20/20 --> Kemper DI --> cab


    Now, I want to confirm I properly understand your explanation of how you implement the signal chain with the amp-only profile.


    You said that you sent...


    Quote

    the Kemper Direct Out to the Input of my Triaxis. Output 1 of the Triaxis was then fed back to the Direct In of the KPA.


    So here is your signal chain:


    Guitar --> Kemper --> Direct Out --> Triaxis --> Output 1 --> Direct In on Kemper.


    I assume you used the 2:90 profile loaded in the stack, with the Triaxis connected to the Kemper hardware loop send and return jacks loaded into an FX loop placed in Stomp D.


    Am I correct?


    I will make a profile set of my 20/20 using various volume and presence settings. I have Mesa, Fender, Ampeg and Marshall preamps available to match with the 20/20 amp profile.


    I am pretty pumped about this. I plan on using this technique to mix and match preamps with various power amp types.

    Quote from scratch17

    Can I conclude that you are making a direct amp profile because you put a DI between the 2:90 and the cab? I have a Kemper DI :) , so I can make a great DAP.

    Yes, I made DAP


    Quote from scratch17

    The 20/20 doesn't have a line/instrument level switch. However I can use my Radial X-Amp box to do the conversion from line to instrument level.

    I'm not sure the X Amp box is necessary. Would that not be converting the opposite way? The direct out from the KPA would be sending a signal suitable for a normal guitar amp input already. Whereas the X Amp would be used if you need to convert a line level low Z signal to a guitar level High Z signal.


    Quote from scratch17

    So here is your signal chain:


    Guitar --> Kemper --> Direct Out --> Triaxis --> Output 1 --> Direct In on Kemper.

    Yes


    Quote from scratch17

    I assume you used the 2:90 profile loaded in the stack, with the Triaxis connected to the Kemper hardware loop send and return jacks loaded into an FX loop placed in Stomp D.

    Yes


    Quote from scratch17

    I am pretty pumped about this. I plan on using this technique to mix and match preamps with various power amp types.


    Remember that I only did this as a way to test the effect of the preamp / power amp relationship in a profile rather than as something I would typically use because of the extra hassle involved. In the real world I would probably just make DAP profiles of the various pre/power amp combinations and save the while signal chain as a single profile.


    If you want to try it out though download my 2:ninety profiles from RE and pair them with your various pre amps to see if the concept is what you are looking form.


    Good luck experimenting :)

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    If you want to try it out though download my 2:ninety profiles from RE and pair them with your various pre amps to see if the concept is what you are looking for

    I will definitely do that. I have a Mesa Rectifier Recording preamp with the same 'Modern' mode as the Triaxis. From the Recto Pre manual:


    Quote


    the MODERN trigger jack on the Rear Panel of the Rectifier Preamp to the MODERN trigger port on the Rear Panel of the power amp. This scheme recreates the Recto sound in its authentic form because the negative feedback is removed at the power amp when MODERN is selected on the preamp. This tracking of power styles is identical to that which occurs in the Dual & Triple Rectifier Heads and is crucial to the performance of these Lead sounds.

    With your profile of the 2:90 with the modern switch on, I believe I can achieve this sound. So thanks for the new sound!


    I never thought it was possible to make power amp profiles. So thanks again for the info.


    My application for separating pre and power amp profiles is designed for use in the studio.


    I have made profiles of my Recto Pre, Marshall JCM-2000 DSL-401, Marshall AS80-R (solid state acoustic guitar amp), Ampeg AX-70 and a Fender AB-763 Blackface clone. Now that I know I can do it, I want to profile the power amp sections.

    I am looking for a used Kemper at a good price to implement some of my ideas. I want to set up the first Kemper with a preamp profile in the tone stack. The output from the first Kemper will go into the second Kemper so the two are connected serially. The second Kemper will have a power amp section loaded in the tone stack.


    Why bother with this when I could just create a DAP in one Kemper? There are a lot of reasons.


    1. With a single Kemper, you cannot split the tone stack. So you cannot put time based effects between the pre and power amp sections of the profile.


    2. With 2 Kempers, you get 16 slots. And two loops for external hardware. So you could have a loop with low level pedals and a second loop with a line level effect.


    3. In my setup, Kemper 1 becomes the preamp and Kemper 2 becomes the power amp. So there is a physical break point between the two sections, just like a real amp with an effects loop.


    There is a hardware loop available in Kemper 1, another in Kemper 2, and a third by inserting any physical gear between the two Kempers.


    Why would you need three effects loops? Read on.


    4. You can stay in the digital domain between the two Kempers. What does this imply and why is it an advantage? You can use the coaxial S/PDIF output on Kemper 1 to feed Kemper 2. You do not need to go from an analog output on Kemper 1 to an analog input on Kemper 2. That reduces the conversions to one A/D and D/A from end to end.


    But since there is a physical break between the two Kempers, there is an insert point between them. So that point is where I will insert my Universal Audio Apollo. It is not just a great audio interface. It can be used a killer stand alone effects box with near zero latency. The physical chain would look like this:


    Kemper 1 --> Apollo --> Kemper 2


    With this chain, I can use a preamp profile in Kemper 1 and UA effect(s) between the preamp profile and the power amp profile loaded into Kemper 2.


    The Apollo will add studio quality effects unavailable on any other effects platform to my Kemper profiles. The available plugins cover all types of classic effects like the Korg SDD-3000, Ocean Way Studios, Roland's Space Echo and Dimension D, Antares Autotune Advanced Realtime, Empirical Labs EL8 Distressor, etc.


    5. In the real world, you would never find a Marshall DSL preamp combined with a Mesa 20/20 (EL84 Dyna-Watt) power amp. But with the ability to create a power amp profile of the Mesa 20/20, I can do just that.


    I can create a DAP of the real Marshall preamp feeding the real Mesa power amp, which is cool. I've actually already done that. But what if I want to switch preamps or power amp combinations? Again, I've already done DAPs of all of my personal gear.


    But I have a buddy who has 20+ guitar amps. I want them all!


    Instead of creating 400+ combinations, I would rather make profiles of 20 more preamps and 20 more power amps. Then I can use two Kempers to create the combinations. And I can switch between profiles loaded on each Kemper using my RJM Mastermind GT with a push of a button.


    This is my dream setup. I have asked for a split tone stack so I could do many of these types of operations, but have gotten no joy. Until now.


    Note that you could use any effects box between two Kempers. I am using a UA Apollo because it has some really unique effects that just are not available on a traditional effects box.


    There are other setup chains that should be mentioned here.


    Apollo --> Kemper


    Here you can put a Unison plugin in front of the Kemper. Hi Z Unison amp and pedal sims have a hardware /software interaction that more closely mimics the interaction between your guitar and a real world tube amp or pedal. Obviously you could simply put a Tube Screamer before your Kemper so the pedals are not a big deal.


    But there are Unison amp plugins from Friedman (Dirty Shirley, Buxom Betty and BE-100), Fuchs (Train II, Overdrive Supreme 50), Suhr (PT-100, SE-100), and the Diezel Herbert, which can turn off their preamp or power amp sections. So you are able to mix and match these pre and power amp sections from both sources. Obviously with this configuration, you'd load a preamp into the Apollo (amp and cab off) and use a power amp profile loaded into the tone stack of the Kemper.


    Kemper --> Apollo


    Here you can do the reverse. Load a preamp profile into the Kemper and a power amp and cab into the Apollo.


    You can also load a DAP into the Kemper. Then turn off both the preamp and power amp sections of an Apollo amp sim, just leaving the plugins' cabinet sims. This instantly adds a vast array of world class cabinet sims to a Kemper with a DAP loaded into the tone stack. I've done this configuration before, and it can be amazing.

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    That’s way over my head.

    I get your "that's way too complicated to deal with" reaction. I get that all the time in my studio. Guitarists want to plug and play.


    However, I think that there is a conception issue here.


    Consider this minimalist guitar rig.


    Guitar --> tone shaping devices --> preamp --> effect loop send --> time based effects --> effect loop return --> power amp --> cabinet


    Tone shaping devices would be fuzz, overdrive, distortion, boost, EQ, compression, gate etc.


    Now try to conceive of the above chain as blocks of functions. This is just like algorithm generation in object oriented programming. In OOP the 'blocks' are called modules. The modules also have internal algorithms.


    As blocks of functions, the chain now looks like this:


    Block 1: pedals in front of the amp -->

    Block 2: the preamp -->

    Block 3: the time based effects -->

    Block 4: the power amp -->

    Block 5: the speaker cabinet(s)


    This is what I call my concept chain.


    Note that you wouldn't hesitate to change amps, pedals or cabs in the real world. But owning loads of pedals and amps is expensive. So you bought a Kemper. It provides you that ability in the virtual world.


    Now compare the concept chain to the following chain:


    Kemper 1 --> Apollo --> Kemper 2 --> (Optional) guitar cab or Kemper Kone


    Inside the Kemper 1 you have 4 stomp slots for effects such as fuzz, distortion, overdrive, EQ, compression, etc. Then you load a preamp profile into the tone stack. So Kemper 1 contains Blocks 1 and 2.


    Next the Apollo implements Block 3. Of course this could be any time based effect device like a Fractal FX 3, Line 6 Helix, etc.


    Finally, Kemper 2 contains Block 4 with a power amp loaded into the tone stack.


    Thanks to the flexibility of the Kemper, you have plenty of options for the cabinet block. (Block 5 in my concept chain).


    You can use the Kemper's cab block, load an IR, or even add a different hardware device that has virtual cabinets. For example, a hardware IR pedal, or a Fractal, etc.


    But you can leave the virtual world here and use real guitar cabs powered by a solid state amp. Remember that the pre and power amp profiles combined make a direct amp profile, so this is an ideal 'in the real world' solution for getting an amp in the room feel.


    Or you can use Kemper Kone technology when it becomes available. :P


    Bottom line is that I have just replaced the functions contained in my concept chain with 2 Kempers and an Apollo. Doing so may look intimidating, but it really isn't if you can conceive of the translation from real world hardware to devices that can implement the functions you need to get the sound you want.

    scratch17 i get what you are saying and understand why you want to to do. It’s way to much work for me personally but that doesn’t make it wrong.


    The only part I have any sort of “issue” woth is the need to put time based effects before the power ap rather than after. In reality what guitarists wanted way back in the day was a way to ise stufio effects in a live situation. The really top players paid guys like Bob Bradshaw to build them massice racks that actually took the signal from the amp’s speaker output and brought it down to line level to run through their Eventide and Lexicon studio procesors. Then feed it through some sort of mixer to allow parallel effect chains (like running it through a bus on the desk) before finally amp,ifying it with a big PA power amp. That’s basically the Kemper signal chain. However, most people couldn’t affort to have Bob Bradshaw or Pete Cornish build them a rack so the amp manufacturerscame up with the FX loop as the best compromise work around. It wasn’t ever (IMHO) a case of anyone deciding that the best place to put time based effects was between pre and power amps. Rather it was the only wat to get the result without the need for massive external racks and load resistors on the speaker outs.


    Necessity is the mother of invention.

    I was aware that Bradshaw had done some custom work (as in Custom Audio Electronics). I just didn't know that his gear reduced the level from speaker to line so that the time based effects could be placed after the power amp.


    Of course, even with 2 Kempers (one for pre profile + one for power profile), you could place an Apollo after the second instead of between them. I was planning on trying both placements for comparison. My emphasis on where the effects are placed was made based on modern tube amps with a serial effects loop.


    Note that the Apollo has many classic plugin emulations, including effects from Lexicon and Eventide among others. I have long been an advocate of guitarists using these studio effects rather than going with another box of multi-effects like the really good ones already available in the Kemper. And the Apolo's Console 2 application, while limited, can create all sorts of parallel chains.

    Again, I agree that there is mileage in trying it out if you have the option to and the resulting sound may be absolutely stellar but for my personal purposes the level of marginal gain obtained would almost certainly outweigh the extra effort involved. Bearing in mind that my idea of an effect is picking closer to the bridge or neck, or turning down the guitar volume a bit to clean up the gain. I pretty much never use Reverb live and only use it in a mix as a sense of space for all instruments. I sometimes use a bit of dealy but nothing over the top and rarely use much in the way of modulation either. I can't remember the last time I used an overdrive or distortion pedal as I get that from the amp. I think what I'm saying is that neither of us are probably "typical" players but out need sit at opposite ends of the spectrum :D Most folk probably sit somewhere in between.