Kemper and In ear (EIM) questions


  • We run a full IEM mix... and I'm totally happy to let the venue mic the drums. We have 16 splits- and our IEM mix only uses OHs/Kick/Snare for the drums. So this is still totally doable without 'taking the time to mic his own stuff'. As far as spending the money - our drummer uses a wired behringer P1 wired pack. IIRC they're around 100 bucks. (maybe 150?). Compared to the thousand-dollars-a-man wireless, it's nuthin'.

    We use an X32 as our monitor mixer. 16 channels in, and the aux outs are our monitors. Each band member gets their own stereo mix (there are 3 of us)... and we also have a stage mix available should the FOH guy decide to let us patch the floor wedges in for sidefill.

    Good info. I should point out (for V8Guitar) that its not that our drummer doesnt want to mic his drums (they are mic'd every gig)...HE doesnt want to run the mics himself. The sound guy at the bar does it. So his beef is why should he now have to spend time throwing mics and running cables on his stuff for something he doesnt really want. Makes sense.


    So Mollydyer, I dont understand what you mean by "we have 16 splits". If I understand you right...your saying that the rest of you run your own mics/cables into your own mixer (snake) and run them into your EIM from your mixer, but the sound guy sets up all the drum mics and then just gives drum signal back to you in a feed from the FOH? Thats kind of what I'm hoping we can do. That way we can also get by with just a 16 channel board. (Behringer XR18?)

  • Good info. I should point out (for V8Guitar) that its not that our drummer doesnt want to mic his drums (they are mic'd every gig)...HE doesnt want to run the mics himself. The sound guy at the bar does it. So his beef is why should he now have to spend time throwing mics and running cables on his stuff for something he doesnt really want. Makes sense.

    Sorry, I still don't get it - I must be missing something.


    The mics are for him...so he can be heard through the PA. You can take advantage of this by taking the sound off the board for an IEM mix but the IEM is not the initial driver. In other words he should want to be miked...strange..

  • Sorry, I still don't get it - I must be missing something.


    The mics are for him...so he can be heard through the PA. You can take advantage of this by taking the sound off the board for an IEM mix but the IEM is not the initial driver. In other words he should want to be miked...strange..

    You are missing something...or I'm just explaining it shitty. The drummer does want to be mic'ed. The drummer IS mic'ed. Every time. The drummer doesnt set the mics up. The house sound guy does. Our drummer sets up his drums..sound guy sets up the mics. "MY" understanding of how this whole "band in ear" thing works is that most bands bring thier own mics, cables and stuff and run it all into the on stage splitter...that the band brings. Thats the best way to get consistent sound. The drummer has no intention of bringing mics every night and setting them up himself. Plus he doesnt want to spend any money.


    So...I'm hoping that, as you say, we can just let the sound guy continue to mic the drummers drums and set them up as he usually would...then just run a signal for just the mics from the FOH into our theoretical on stage mixer for the rest of the bands in ears. In general....one of the hard sells of this whole thing is that people have to set up their own mics and run their own cables. We are spoiled now not having to do that.

  • So Mollydyer, I dont understand what you mean by "we have 16 splits". If I understand you right...your saying that the rest of you run your own mics/cables into your own mixer (snake) and run them into your EIM from your mixer, but the sound guy sets up all the drum mics and then just gives drum signal back to you in a feed from the FOH? Thats kind of what I'm hoping we can do. That way we can also get by with just a 16 channel board. (Behringer XR18?)

    Yep - exactly...ish?

    When the venue wants to set up mics, we let them. Hell I prefer it. Sound guy knows the room better than I do, and usually has a lot more experience than I do. So it's just like a normal set up- except our mixer is inserted BETWEEN the mics the sound guy sets up and the FOH via the 16 microphone splits. SO my Kemper, the bass, the vocals, and the drums all go through the mic splitters on their way to FOH. The splitters are transformer isolated on OUR side of the split - the FOH gets directs.


    Specifically, on our rig- channels 1-6 are the drums - so the house will plug the cables from the kick, snare and overhead mics etc into our rack. Out from the splitters into his stagebox. kemper is the same (channels 7&8). Then bass, backing vox, lead vox... you get the picture.

    I'm also just as happy to use the venue's splits if that's what they prefer. We've done that too.

    I'm also looking forward to a show in the near future where we just slave our X32 to the house (no need for splits, we become the stage box).


    Bottom line is.. it's about the show. There's a compromise. Your drummer's argument about setting up his own mics is invalid, because if the house wants to do it, the house should do it.


    Actually, we have a gig like that this weekend.

    That reminds me, I gotta get our plot out to him.


    KPA Unpowered Rack, Kemper Remote, Headrush FRFR108s, BC Rich Mockingbird(s), and a nasty attitude.

  • You are missing something...or I'm just explaining it shitty. The drummer does want to be mic'ed. The drummer IS mic'ed. Every time. The drummer doesnt set the mics up. The house sound guy does. Our drummer sets up his drums..sound guy sets up the mics. "MY" understanding of how this whole "band in ear" thing works is that most bands bring thier own mics, cables and stuff and run it all into the on stage splitter...that the band brings. Thats the best way to get consistent sound. The drummer has no intention of bringing mics every night and setting them up himself. Plus he doesnt want to spend any money.


    So...I'm hoping that, as you say, we can just let the sound guy continue to mic the drummers drums and set them up as he usually would...then just run a signal for just the mics from the FOH into our theoretical on stage mixer for the rest of the bands in ears. In general....one of the hard sells of this whole thing is that people have to set up their own mics and run their own cables. We are spoiled now not having to do that.

    Ahh right...So, no that's NOT what we do and I've never seen or heard a band do that.


    We use all the PA mikes and take a monitor feed ( AUX), so a dedicated mix off the board in exactly the same way as you drive a monitor. That way to get a different mix, using the same mixes. So one set of mics. Can't see the point of setting up a secondary set of mics or splitters except that you have your own control.


    As I said I've always used the sound guy and sound checked IEM's as you would monitors. Once its set, its done. for me taking separate feeds from the KPA, adding your own mikes and mixing for a specific band controlled monitor mix is overkill. As long as the sound guy is reasonable ( I have had NO experience of a sound guy not setting up IEM's but I appreciate they are out there) and you don't need 5 entirely different mixes for each band member, then I just don;t see the issue.


    Hope you find the best answer for you :)

  • I'm still not explaining I guess. There is only one set of mics. Either the house sound has to own them or we have to own them and bring them. Currently 90% of the time we play, the house sound owns the mics and sets them up (drums, vocals, etc). The other 10% we bring our own mics and set them up and plug into the house system. Drummer hates bringing and setting up his own mics. Doesnt want to do it every night.

  • I'm still not explaining I guess. There is only one set of mics. Either the house sound has to own them or we have to own them and bring them. Currently 90% of the time we play, the house sound owns the mics and sets them up (drums, vocals, etc). The other 10% we bring our own mics and set them up and plug into the house system. (Stage boxes/snakes on stage). Drummer hates bringing and setting up his own mics. Doesnt want to do it every night.

  • If the house wanted to provide the mics every night (or set up mics we brought) and run them into our splitter....I think the drummer would be in. He has his own mics but hates dicking around with them. But my understanding is that most bands that do the full band IEM thing bring their own mics and set them up themselves. At least thats what I've gathered from conversations I've read and from what a couple of sound guys have told me.

  • If the house wanted to provide the mics every night (or set up mics we brought) and run them into our splitter....I think the drummer would be in. He has his own mics but hates dicking around with them. But my understanding is that most bands that do the full band IEM thing bring their own mics and set them up themselves. At least thats what I've gathered from conversations I've read and from what a couple of sound guys have told me.

    Nope, always use the in house mics. If not use ours if using our own PA. Drums should be miked all the time to ensure they are heard. If they are miked up then you can run IEM.s.


    I see no need for a splitter etc as virtually all desks have spare AUX outputs, typically used for Monitors..

  • Nope, always use the in house mics. If not use ours if using our own PA. Drums should be miked all the time to ensure they are heard. If they are miked up then you can run IEM.s.


    I see no need for a splitter etc as virtually all desks have spare AUX outputs, typically used for Monitors..

    Now maybe I'm not understanding you: My definition of a splitter (which very well may be wrong) is a device that essentially allows you to plug your mic/instrument XLR cable into...which then sends that signal to 2 different locations: So mic into splitter: 1 side of splitter runs into the inputs of your EIM mixer and the other side runs out to the inputs for FOH. (Probably running into a snake box on the stage).


    I know your whole band doesnt use the EIM's. But I think for a normal "whole band" EIM you need a splitter of some sort so you can send your mic/instrument signal 2 different places. For you, yes you just need a mix from FOH just like you'd get for a wedge sitting in front of you.

  • As an engineer, and large console user, I really recommend having a conversation with your next mix engineer in advance of your gig (when you send your technical spec, perhaps) about what you want out of an IEM / monitor wedge mix. Unless they are severely limited on the number of auxes available, there’s no barrier to driving monitor mixes from FOH for many mid-sized venues, especially with a heads-up to assign some busses in advance. A dedicated monitor mixer is a nice thing, sure, and yes you’d use mic splits, but having a band try and mix their own through the show without it being near anyone sounds less effective than having the FOH engineer look after things for you.

    In a perfect world, we’d all take or consoles and dedicated monitor engineers with us, but that’s the preserve of the larger pro touring scene. The advent of small and mid format digital consoles means in many small and mid size venues that aux outs for monitors are in good supply these days, and if you still want to mix your own monitors, often there’s an app for that...

    Ed / Audio Systems Engineer / Kemper Stage + Fender fan

  • Now maybe I'm not understanding you: My definition of a splitter (which very well may be wrong) is a device that essentially allows you to plug your mic/instrument XLR cable into...which then sends that signal to 2 different locations: So mic into splitter: 1 side of splitter runs into the inputs of your EIM mixer and the other side runs out to the inputs for FOH. (Probably running into a snake box on the stage).


    I know your whole band doesnt use the EIM's. But I think for a normal "whole band" EIM you need a splitter of some sort so you can send your mic/instrument signal 2 different places. For you, yes you just need a mix from FOH just like you'd get for a wedge sitting in front of you.

    Nope. You're right. And, so is V8guitar and EdwardArnold.

    If you want to run your own monitor world, you'll need the splits and your own mixer. We have absolutely no problem doing this.

    If you want to let the FOH do it, and it's a bigger venue, they can usually provide auxes to you as needed. (A lot of smaller clubs don't have this as an option- at least not around here. Asking them to patch you into the monitors can result in pained, confused face scrunching). GOOD clubs have no problem doing this though.

    There's more than one way to skin a cat... and in no cases is the cat required to mic his own drums :)


    KPA Unpowered Rack, Kemper Remote, Headrush FRFR108s, BC Rich Mockingbird(s), and a nasty attitude.

  • Now maybe I'm not understanding you: My definition of a splitter (which very well may be wrong) is a device that essentially allows you to plug your mic/instrument XLR cable into...which then sends that signal to 2 different locations: So mic into splitter: 1 side of splitter runs into the inputs of your EIM mixer and the other side runs out to the inputs for FOH. (Probably running into a snake box on the stage).


    I know your whole band doesnt use the EIM's. But I think for a normal "whole band" EIM you need a splitter of some sort so you can send your mic/instrument signal 2 different places. For you, yes you just need a mix from FOH just like you'd get for a wedge sitting in front of you.

    You are correct in your defintion of a splitter, but as said, a mixing desk can take a single input and through Aux out can set a volume level for each channel independant of the FOH sound...so a separate mix can be sent via aux out to an IEM.


    So unless the venue has no output avaiable, its not needed.


    So far I have not played a venue where they did not have a spare aux out for IEM's. Smaller Pa set ups use less montiors, larger ones have bigger desks..generally have spare aux outs.


    I have never seen anyone use a splitter into a main PA persoanlly ( doesn;t mean people don't use them) but smaller bands would not bothe, larger bands have their won dedicated monitor mix anyway.


    So you could use a splitter but I don;t see why you need one unless you already know a venue can;t support this. I just think this is over engineering it.

  • It really depends on who... and where you are.


    That said- yes, over-engineering sounds about right for me.


    KPA Unpowered Rack, Kemper Remote, Headrush FRFR108s, BC Rich Mockingbird(s), and a nasty attitude.

  • This is a really good conversation and I'm learning alot. So thanks for putting up with me. Not a sound engineer so alot of this is new.


    Good info. But here's where I think we run into issues:

    If there is only 1 aux....and you have 6 people....then 6 people would get the exact same mix in their ears. Thats not something that would work. If each person wants thier own mix...you need 6 aux outs....which some of places we play dont have. But in general....I get your point. Its essentially what I'm doing right now: taking up an aux for my in ears where the sound guy sets all the levels...except my guitar..which I'm setting from my Kemper.


    I think Molly nailed it above with all the options you have. From the bands I've talked to that have their own system: they love that once they've set their own monitors once (and tweaked them over a few shows)...they show up at gigs and dont have to mess with it again for the most part. Sound check is just the FOH making sure he's got signals. Thats appealing.

  • No worries dude, that why we are here.


    You are right, if you all need a different mix then yes you need 6 outputs, PLUS six IEM transceivers and a way to manage the mixes yourselves ( otherwise you will need to sound check all of them!).


    Couple of things to consider:

    Do you really need 6 mixes? I have the whole band in my IEM's as if I was listening to it or on stage. I don;t wnat just me or loads of me and a little bit of others...becuase I want to hear what the band sounds like not just me and I need to lock into the bass and drums. The drummer does not just want to hear him, he will want to hear the whole band - the only variation is he might want a bias of drums. My point is, its a lot of overhead for just a bit of bias from each band member

    IEM's replace on stage monitors....only big bands on big stages have a monitor each with their own mix.


    I strongly suggest to keep it simple...or at least build this up over time for what works. IEM's are expensive as well...

  • V8guitar We're a 3 piece. I'm looking at the monitor mixes right now:


    Mine - vocals and guitar - is nearly identical to our 'self' FOH mix - although I cut the bass back a bit.

    My bassist's mix is VERY different. More kick, more bass, more backing vocals.

    Our drummer has just kick in the mix- the snare is down low and the overheads are almost all the way down. Makes sense, he doesn't need that with everything right in front of him. ( EDIT: he has guitar and bass too, but it's not as hot as the FOH. )

    In our case, it's worthy overhead- as each member has different needs.

    You make really really good points- and I think each band, and each musician is different. Starting simple and building from there is the smart way to go.

    We didn't jump into this rig, it's evolved considerably.


    KPA Unpowered Rack, Kemper Remote, Headrush FRFR108s, BC Rich Mockingbird(s), and a nasty attitude.

    Edited once, last by mollydyer ().

  • Thanks. I remember you mentioning before that you have kind of an overall band mix in your in ears...which is probably where this breaks down for me (and probably lots of others).


    We do need 6 different mixes as people have different needs. When we all use wedges, the only people who can share a mix are the 2 female lead singers. And they hate that because in general...each person wants to hear more of themselves then the other. I dont think we're a "big band playing big stages"...but we are a physically big band (6 people) and do playsome of the nicer clubs in the Twin Cities area. Most bands on this circuit are used to having their own mix. Even with wedge monitors. At a minimum....you need 4 mixes for most bands. We all sing also...with pretty intricate 3 and 4 part harmonies with all 6 vocalists sometimes. So each person needs to be able to hear their own vocal on top of everyone else to know they are in pitch, etc. For me, when I use a wedge, I only needed my vocal in the monitor because I just needed to hear myself sing. The EIM mix changes all that because even with the ambient mix...I dont hear enough of everyone else to tell whats going on.


    I like the suggestion though of keeping it simple. Its entirely possible that each person grows this organically with thier own personal EIM system until we get enough people using it to justify the board. We'll see.


    For fun, here's a video of our band so you get the picture:

    https://youtu.be/qMdm3kIgKHs

  • Cool band. I get the whole need for separate mixes - it's the same deal in the bands I play in, with totally different wedge or IEM mixes per player. I now just play as a dep in one of the bands, so I went to see them tonight as an audience member. I've become so used to the monitor mix I prefer that it sounded rather strange hearing a full band mix!


    (P.S. I think you've got your TLAs mixed up - Enterprise Information Management probably isn't that helpful when gigging :P )

    Ed / Audio Systems Engineer / Kemper Stage + Fender fan

  • Ok- coming off last night's gig. There really IS more than one way to skin a cat.


    Years ago, when I started playing at this venue - they had no house engineer. Last time I played there, they did, with older analog gear that would not have been capable of running our monitor world for us. That gig was just our fly in set (so we use house everything, including monitors)- so we didn't do a full set up. Last night was a full set up.

    The venue now has an amazing M32 console setup with lots of channels.



    The rack stage right (left side of this pic) has: Laptop, vocal processor, IEM rack, Kemper, backing track interfaces, X32 / splits/ inputs.


    House engineer was great. He really was fucking amazing.

    First thing - and I need to clarify this on the plot/tech rider - he thought we had Y splits and not the rack mounted transformer isolated splits. So we had to do some juggling and discussion on how to set this up. We ended up running XLRs from his mics to our split input, and out my 16 channel tail-snake to HIS cable drops on stage. That seemed to be the path of least resistance.


    KPA Unpowered Rack, Kemper Remote, Headrush FRFR108s, BC Rich Mockingbird(s), and a nasty attitude.