How do I get rid of latency between two Kempers?

  • Some people don't read, dont search Google, they just ask on Forum. So I will help people that make A MINIMUM of effort before they post, if they obviously don't I wont bother...

    Well Dennis, I DID read, and search Google and other places, and because of that I ended up finding the video on YouTube which I posted in the beginning of this thread. I also messaged other users of this forum who use dual Kemper setups since they are more familiar with that setup than I am. I even tried reaching out to the person who created the video both via the YouTube comments section and here on the forum. I hope that met your MINIMUM level of effort that you’d require before helping; which by the way, you haven’t done at all in this thread. Do you actually have any info that can help, or are you here just to complain about how people try to find answers or to troll threads in which people are seeking help for things they are having trouble with?


    Fortunately, most of us here on the forum are happy to help each other without prerequisites in place (unless it’s a basic “read the manual” kind of question). I personally appreciate ANYONE who takes the time to offer any suggestions (even if they don’t always work - at least someone is trying to help).

  • I'll try to recreate this behaviour.

    Hi Don, would it be helpful if I posted a video to show the lag between the amps changing? Maybe that would help to determine if it’s within the normal range of latency or if there is something wonky happening.


    As I mentioned, the first Kemper changes almost instantly. It’s just a bit of lag with the command going from KPA 1 to KPA 2 that seems a little long.

  • Yes it looks like you have to learn more about MIDI first

    Dont confuse the two (a MIDI problem is not a Kemper problem)

    Learn about MIDI first then you'll be able to use this knowledge to Kemper to Keyboards to Daw and everything

    Wow, that's a bit harsh.


    You are talking about 2 experienced KPA users discussing not a simple issue - if its in the manual or on google ( the base level you think they need to solve this, provide the links..


    This is not in the " read the manual" category.

  • Hi Don, would it be helpful if I posted a video to show the lag between the amps changing? Maybe that would help to determine if it’s within the normal range of latency or if there is something wonky happening.


    As I mentioned, the first Kemper changes almost instantly. It’s just a bit of lag with the command going from KPA 1 to KPA 2 that seems a little long.

    sure. audio would probably be sufficient.

    having a sustained note/chord playing over the change might help to figure out the exact delay.

    maybe 1 PROFILER left and the other one on the right?

  • sure. audio would probably be sufficient.

    having a sustained note/chord playing over the change might help to figure out the exact delay.

    maybe 1 PROFILER left and the other one on the right?

    Will do Don. I won’t have the ability to do this until Sunday, but as soon as I get it, I’ll send it along.

  • Maybe you can use a 4 port 100mbit ethernet switch for this? Don't know how it will deal with power but i would guess ethernet out from the remote to the switch, and two short ethernet cables to Kemper A and Kemper B? I would presume that the ethernet switch will not ad much latency and switching would be synchronous and near instantaneous...

  • Maybe you can use a 4 port 100mbit ethernet switch for this? Don't know how it will deal with power but i would guess ethernet out from the remote to the switch, and two short ethernet cables to Kemper A and Kemper B? I would presume that the ethernet switch will not ad much latency and switching would be synchronous and near instantaneous...

    you cannot use one Remote to control 2 PROFILERS using such a switch. This is the reason why we have introduced the UI to MIDI function.

  • While I have but one profiler as of now, I am looking to buy a second. So I've read this thread from start to finish.


    I have a MOTU MIDI Express XT USB and an RJM MMGT10. I was planning on connecting the MIDI out from KPA 1 to the Express XT, then splitting that signal to feed the KPA2 and the MMGT10.


    I think that I can use separate MIDI channels on the two Kempers so I can control them separately via the MMGT. Will this setup work, or am I incorrect.


    Note that I want to have different rigs on the 2 Kempers.

  • you cannot use one Remote to control 2 PROFILERS using such a switch. This is the reason why we have introduced the UI to MIDI function.

    This may be asking the same question. But would a MIDI splitter work for simply changing the channels? Or would that basically result in the same issue?


    For what it’s worth, I told DonPetersen that I’d upload a video of the delay between Kempers this Sunday. In the interim, I used the stopwatch feature on my iPhone to get a ROUGH idea as to how long it takes for the units to switch. It seems like it takes about 0.4 seconds or so for the primary Kemper to Switch rigs after stepping on my Kemper Footswitch. To me, that’s not an issue at all. I then timed how long it takes for the 2nd Kemper to switch and it’s basically about double that time (around .8 or so).


    I also tried switching the order of the Kempers to make sure it wasn’t an issue with one Kemper. They both behave the same way.


    So it seems like the reason the 2nd Kemper takes twice as long is because the relay between Kempers takes about the same time as from the footswitch to the Kemper. Which, when just using one Kemper isn’t really noticeable. But when using two, and you double that time, it does become noticeable.


    So I’m guessing this is considered normal. I’m just a little bummed because I know for me, hearing that delay in my IEM all night would drive my OCD crazy.


    That’s why I was wondering if a MIDI splitter would solve the problem. Go out of the Kemper Footswitch, into the splitter and then send a MIDI signal to each Kemper. Or would that just result in the same delay since the MIDI command would have to be split (likely causing latency)?

  • you cannot split the remote signal.

    The purpose of the UI to MIDI function is to make sure that a backup system is always in the same state as the master unit in case of a problem. If your aim is to combine different rigs running on two PROFILERs you can use the function in performance mode that sends up to two MIDI program changes when you switch between slots in a performance. Connect the "slave" PROFILER to the MIDI out of the "master" PROFILER and set both to the same MIDI channel.

    BTW the only way to really measure any timing difference within such a small time range is by recording audio from both units using the same input signal and then switching between slots/rigs while a note is ringing and then looking at the number of samples.

  • I will try the same test with the FCB and our (only) Kemper. This is naturally not the same test but if it also takes ~0.5 seconds to switch from performance to performance when an actual MIDI command is received that could indicate that it has nothing to do with the remote, just the time it takes to react to the command.

  • sure. audio would probably be sufficient.

    having a sustained note/chord playing over the change might help to figure out the exact delay.

    maybe 1 PROFILER left and the other one on the right?

    Hi DonPetersen ,

    Sorry for the delay in getting this audio file to you. Here is a quick sample of the delay that I'm talking about when switching while using 2 Kempers. I've got everything hooked up correctly because the 2nd Kemper does received the 1st Kemper's MIDI command to change rigs. But as you'll hear, there is a delay. I've got Kemper #1 panned to the left and Kemper #2 panned to the right.


    In this example, I'm switching between rigs in the same performance. If I switch between rigs that are different performances, the delay is roughly twice as long.


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/dor7zhiju649zgl/midi-test.mp3?dl=0

  • which method are you using to send the MIDI data to the second PROFILER? UItoMIDI or the Performance MIDI program change per slot method? Or are both methods being used at the same time?

  • @hjscheffler

    From what I observed UI to MIDI does not send any commands regarding the change of the Rig or Performance slot.

    UItoMIDI sends commands (parameter change ) with all parameters assuming that the same Rig is set on both KPAs.

    I am curious whether the assumption was that users should synchronize RIGs by configuring one of the KPA to send a PC?

    EDIT: I was wrong -i had some filter enabled on MIDI input. Sorry.

  • @hjscheffler Sorry - you are right . In Performance mode KPA sends PC messages with UItoMIDI. I edited my post.


    I made an experiment and it turned out that UItoMIDI is about 300ms slower than the programmed PC changes.

    KPA is resends preprogrammed PC change after 7ms!.

    So cocnlusion is to use PC changes in slots and to disable UI to MIDI.

    When UI to MIDI is enabled, it can cause the slot to be re-enabled with a longer delay time.



  • I just watched the video and there are a couple of misleading infos in there.

    First of all the UI to MIDI mode was not implemented to be used as a way to combine two PROFILERs into one superrig. The purpose is to have a backup unit run in sync in a stage situation. You should not try to record any of the data in a DAW for automation or editing as this would potentially lead to all kinds of issues.

    The tip to connect two PROFILERs with 2 MIDI cables and enable UI to MIDI on both is a very bad one. This will create a MIDI loop from hell and you will end up with two frozen systems.

    In conclusion: If you want to use two PROFILERs with different rigs on each one use a single MIDI connection, do NOT use the UI to MIDI option but simply send a program change from the first PROFILER to the second one, connect the front input of the second PROFILER to the Direct out of the first one and select Git/analog as the output source and activate Constant Latency on both units to prevent phase issues.