Blind Test: Axe-Fx III vs. Kemper Profile

  • So now I know: There is definitely a "Kemper Signature Tone" on the Axe-FxIII - cause I still can hear it :D

    What is a kemper signature tone?


    If it's about "relatively consistent differences between source a kemper", that's one thing.


    But to test such a thing you need a big sample size imo. I myself almost never seen a profile sound "darker" than source.


    It can happen with some amp but super rare in my experience. I suspect profiling that axe amp Sim just didn't work as well.


    But for sure the kemper sounded way better to me here no question (just as a side note).

    The bonanza

  • Still quite surprising.


    Could you perhaps share what EQ fixes where done using the studio equalizer exactly, what frequency, by how many db?

    I cut the Bass by .5, boosted the Treble by .5 and boosted Presence by .6. In the Studio EQ, I set the low-cut to 58K, added .1 dB to 1227 Hz , boosted 9K by .3 dB and boosted the High Freq @ 8590 by .2 dB. Very small tweaks, but they helped.

  • So now I know: There is definitely a "Kemper Signature Tone" on the Axe-FxIII - cause I still can hear it :D

    In the past there's been numerous examples shared of profile comparisons with a similar signature. This alone doesn't prove or disprove the existence of that in other clips consistently, though it's worth knowing that ColdFrixon tweaked the profile so it would be good to know to what extent.

  • I cut the Bass by .5, boosted the Treble by .5 and boosted Presence by .6. In the Studio EQ, I set the low-cut to 58K, added .1 dB to 1227 Hz , boosted 9K by .3 dB and boosted the High Freq @ 8590 by .2 dB. Very small tweaks, but they helped.

    This is I think a very rare case of profile sounding darker. I initially asked for info, but being super tired atm, didn't realize the info is about helping a darker profile get closer to source. I'd be more interested in such fixes when it comes to usual results of profiling.


    As per now, I may lower definition a bit, bring back pick attack slightly and add a slight 110hz boost. But you could possibly come up with some more sophisticated eq tweaks for these cases.


    Thanks for answer though.

    The bonanza

  • In the past there's been numerous examples shared of profile comparisons with a similar signature. This alone doesn't prove or disprove the existence of that in other clips consistently, though it's worth knowing that ColdFrixon tweaked the profile so it would be good to know to what extent.

    o.k. - I was just making fun of myself! I and others here heared a "Kemper Signature" on a recording of an Axe. I think this is quite funny

  • o.k. - I was just making fun of myself! I and others here heared a "Kemper Signature" on a recording of an Axe. I think this is quite funny

    I did (well, in regards to usual differences, not sure what kemper sig means) my friend (also profiling a lot, studio guy) did, everybody that I know of who expects a certain difference between kemper and source tone did, who listened.


    With kemper I've seen 2 scenarios most often : in one the mids are way off, whether it be about multiple distortion stages or some modelling sim causing this, or just the way some amps work.


    The other scenario, the ideal one, is where profiling works at its best. Then the mids for me lean towards a "ts" direction on a smaller level but are meaningfully more accurate than the previous scenario.


    So hearing this test, what I thought was that this is a bit more of a scenario 1 than 2.


    But thing is there's also been some reports of a few amp sounding profiling darker - - kraken, one of them, if I remember, gave me such problems too.


    But these are far in between, very rare, in my experience. So I didn't think this is what could have happened here, and tweaks were geared towards a bit of an opposite direction perhaps.

    The bonanza

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

  • I say #2 is the Kemper because of the way the sounds sustain.

    Did compress a little bit more on the sustain making it less lively. Still love my KPA though.

    Kemper PowerRack |Kemper Stage| Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune | 1988 Desert Yellow JEM

  • But is this relevant when evaluative framework, in this case, is to emulate a source tone? Whether we like the tone or not seems to me to be a different matter.


    I could see the connection if the axe tone was something you wouldn't expect kemper to be able to profile well, or say if innacuracies are caused for some particular reason in a given case.. but maybe not just in terms of whether we like a guitar tone or not.


    Ok.I get what you guys are talking about.It is really just about the fact that we have this ever growing number of KPA users on this highest level who really use this tool everyday,in almost every relevant recording studio on earth and on every big stage on earth..and we here discuss if it comes close to this weird sound of another modeler..sorry but this is boring and I indeed believe we should be far beyond this.We had this for years but it is over.At least this is how I see this issue.Nobody will deny that the Kemper or the Fractal stuff does sound great.Like "a real amp".Specially in the mix.



    I believe that all future shootouts should concentrate on the "last barrier" the last gen modelers maybe have or maybe have not anymore.And this cant be anything else than the question about "the feel" while playing.

    This is how good the Kemper (and for sure the AF3) have become.I want to see a vid of a great player playing "with lust" his KPA and/or AF3 while he completely is lost in space as he would be with his finest lespaul/stratocaster plugged in into a fine dumble amp doing "brothers in arms" style of lines..Playing with the volume/tone controls,switching PUs and telling me that the "feel" of this or that modeler is closer to the real tube thing.This would be not boring.Indeed this kind of shootout would be something highly interesting.This is all I wanted to say.Sorry if I hijacked this thread.If you want to talk further about "how close" did the Kemper got to this weird mid freq phasing ringing sound..sorry that I interupted you.:)

  • I think clip 2 unfortunately.


    I say unfortunately because I actually much prefer clip 2 but think clip 1 has a “Kemper signature” to the sound.


    I hope I’m wrong :D

    Well that was a surprise =O


    One one hand I’m delighted thst the one I liked better was the KPA so my money was well spent.


    On the other, hand I gutted my ears are so bad that I heard the legendary Kemper signature from an Axe :D


    Time to do some ear traning ai think :P

  • sorry but this is boring and I indeed believe we should be far beyond this.We had this for years but it is over.At least this is how I see this issue.Nobody will deny that the Kemper or the Fractal stuff does sound great.Like "a real amp".

    I'm certainly not twisting anyone's arm to view or reply to this thread. I encourage you to interact in threads that hold an interest for you.


    That said, this test wasn't about proving whether one or the other unit sounds great. Obviously they both do. In my case, I do hear minor discrepancies in some profiles and I enjoy finding ways to overcome them. This wasn't a great example of that, but I feel pretty strongly that it's possible to iron out some of the differences with EQ to the point that it's extremely difficult (if not impossible) to tell which is which.

  • It is really just about the fact that we have this ever growing number of KPA users on this highest level who really use this tool everyday,in almost every relevant recording studio on earth and on every big stage on earth..and we here discuss if it comes close to this weird sound of another modeler

    The point is if there's a difference or not, if you can tell, and in ColdFrixon's case, what you can do to try and bring them "closer", perhaps even fooling ones ears with the perceived opposite effect as expected.


    The argument you consistently bring up about "professionals" using the KPA, etc, isn't the topic of conversation and isn't germane. Nobody said they weren't great tools used by industry professionals. We shouldn't keep ourselves from intellectual inquiry because it's a proven commodity. At the end of the day, those professionals are people too, prone to the same biases and misapprehensions.

  • I am glad to say that I had guessed the wrong way, as this destroys my pre-conceptions of what Kemper does.


    Whenever I have tried to profile something without a real speaker involved, it has always been less accurate. That might explain the eq being needed.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • If you know the frequencies that the Kemper favors, its easy to fool people.


    I guessed wrong in this thread as most did. Granted if the OP could have been more transparent and said the Kempers settings were adjusted. Some might have 'guessed' differently. But great job man!


    Tips for less high end in profiles (when creating the profile); lower the amps presence. If there is a OD pedal, lower the tone and/or the level. When the Kemper runs its pulses during profiling, the increasing amplitude pushes your power amp. The end result is a profile with higher definition. And in some cases excess bass. The kempers profiling ability of the power amp is its weakest point. Its more evident for metal players.

  • If you know the frequencies that the Kemper favors, its easy to fool people.


    I guessed wrong in this thread as most did. Granted if the OP could have been more transparent and said the Kempers settings were adjusted. Some might have 'guessed' differently. But great job man!


    Tips for less high end in profiles (when creating the profile); lower the amps presence. If there is a OD pedal, lower the tone and/or the level. When the Kemper runs its pulses during profiling, the increasing amplitude pushes your power amp. The end result is a profile with higher definition. And in some cases excess bass. The kempers profiling ability of the power amp is its weakest point. Its more evident for metal players.

    I myself, even without the tweaking OP did, would likely have thought thought first was Kempery nonetheless.


    But that's not so surprising considering this seems to be a very rare case where profiling produces quite a "darker" tone with mids tilted to opposite direction compared to say 1) a slight TS focus or more so 2) a more substantial cocked wah.


    How often does that "Dark" bonanza happen? One in 30 cases? One in 50? 1 in 200? And what exactly causes it? Hard to say.


    In this case, axe fx tone included 3 distortion pedals + tone match block, as far as I understand. We are pretty deep into experimental waters by that point.


    And that's not even factoring in that modelling Sims can at times confuse Kemper, producing the kind of substantial "cocked wah" you see in plenty of cases with dual distorting stages (say pre amp and power amp).


    Some real preamp alone I've also seen do this, probably due to some particular way they function. But as said when things work "ideally", many profiling regularly, in my cyrcles at least, are used to expect a slight TS focus and some lack at 110.


    That's why the guesses went the way they did, it seems me. Especially from people used to profiling, is my impression.


    But all these are different things: 1) profiling going wrong, for whatever reason, Kemper confused = massive cocked wah 2) slight TS focus many of us tend to experience, even with much more accurate result than case 1 and 3) The "dark" bonanza seen here , much more rare than both previous cases.


    This isn't to dismiss the test as not important. But I'm trying to put things into some perspective, provided my experience.

    The bonanza

  • I believe that all future shootouts should concentrate on the "last barrier" the last gen modelers maybe have or maybe have not anymore.And this cant be anything else than the question about "the feel" while playing.


    I have published some such test before.


    The problem with these is (even) more so methodology. Audio tests can help eliminate biases when it comes to the listeners taking the blind test. There's issues there too, can be -- but how do we have people partipate in such testing when it comes to feel? Never mind it's pretty easy for anyone to just deny the experience the person is having, if talking about online test where one just "shares their experience".


    What can be done is test poeple in person, using same monitoring, seeing whether they can tell the difference on some consistent level suggesting what they are hearing is due to existing tonal differences. Then we can have the guitarist play through the units. We'd be switching them around. Sure, we cannot eliminate the guirarist hearing the sound, as "feel" relates to that in analogy to the playing.


    But there can be observations to make.


    For example, I've had cases where I fail my own blind test (with Kemper not being confused , In these cases, at all). However, being tested in the manner described thereafter things changed -- and my ability to discern differences increased massively.


    In some such case, you have reason to believe tonal differences are hard to hear consistently but still discernible to the player at hand (and there's going to be variation between players, on that end; not too safe making conclusions about what one's own experience would be, depending on a number of testing variables) when it comes to so-called "feel". Yes, there's other possibilities as well -- for example maybe the blind audio test didn't include the kind of playing that revealed differences well enough.


    And then the player, in the "feel" test, heard these kind of sounds more. The point is just that there can be plenty of possibilities here, sure. But yes, I think it's do-able to test "feel" as well, at least in terms of discerning differences, on some level. Some such tests and methdologies will be better, given what the goal is, than others.


    Same with axe fx vs amp vs Kemper vs helix, pla pla. This isn't only about Kemper, yea... and surely then it shouldn't also be noted that the question of "evaluating" differences, where and if they so exist, is a meaningfully different question to ask.

    The bonanza