Upgraded Power Cord

  • Thanks dude, finally a constructive response here, really appreciate for that!

    Glad you appreciate a link to an old thread where the test files have long disappeared and not a single bit of proof is to be found. :-) Have fun spending some cash and don't forget all the other cable types including Vovox USB cable and a proper Vovox Ethernet cable for the Kemper Remote. And just to be safe, you might want to consider 2 Vovox S/PDIF cables as well.

  • This debate has raged for years in the high end audio world. No amount of proof or evidence has ever been shown to support the claims by any cable manufacturers except under their own tests and conditions. That said, supposedly, Eric Johnson can blind test cables and 9V batteries and discern the differences. So, essentially, if you have super human hearing..... maybe.... but highly unlikely.

    As exhibit one I offer you this: A $16,000 IEC Cable

  • Without wishing to open up a huge internets rabbit hole here I will just say this:

    when it comes to pro audio especially, there is a huge internets cottage industry of armchair “MythBusters“ who love to sell a “nothing really matters“ philosophy

    and one can see why that philosophy is appealing to people operating at a hobbyist or semi pro level

    So, It would be comforting on some levels to believe that pros are just fooling themselves with their $20,000 microphone and really you can do anything you want with $100 SM 57 etc.

    but I know I’ve said this before that if one person can hear a difference repeatedly (your Eric Johnson example, or I could give you many others) then the phenomenon genuinely exists, and it doesn’t matter or “disprove” that phenomenon if 95% of other people cannot hear it

    If you want to say that for what you do you don’t “need” a $20,000 microphone, or that not having that microphone shouldn’t stop you from doing what you need to do, those are entirely valid points of view .

    But don’t say “no one can hear the difference” or “ no one needs one”

    So again I remain unconvinced that a pricey power cable makes enough of a difference that I should have to worry about it

    but that doesn’t mean I’m prepared to dismiss the possibility that some people hear it, some people care and some people can afford to make everything sound as good as they possibly can

    I know I’ve demonstrated for myself that relatively expensive guitar leads and mic cables for example make a difference and are entirely worth it to me

    I will just introduce one other small tangent possibly which is that in my view the stronger the power supply design in a device the less important outside power tends to be but power supplies are often where manufacturers unfortunately cut costs

  • This is not a matter here. Pure scientifics facts are.

    Please do not mix things that affect the audio signal path with those that do not.

    Could you kindly explain to me how the magic of the power cable affects the sound if there are kilometers of transmission lines in front of the plug, where the birds poop. Probably the electrons are then sad and sad reach our power supply. Then the music becomes sadder in reception ;) And the 50 cm gold HI FI power cable make them happy again :P

    They are the same fairy tales as the wonderful properties of homeopathy.

    Science doesn't care what you believe.

  • wwittman I totally get your 20k mic analogy but I don’t think power cables fall into the same category. I definitely don’t need and can’t afford a 20k mic but I am glad that some top pros can and do as it makes the audio I listen too from some of my favourite artist sound spectacular.

    As Damien says though the mic example is part of the audio signal path as are guitar cables and mic cables. A power cable isn’t and this especially true of digital gear.

  • high end recording studios spend a lot of money on regulated and balanced power... the way you power audio gear matters, including digital gear.

    all I'm saying is that some serious pros i know, who really know what they hear, swear by high end power cabling. (Ross Hogarth comes to mind).

    I'm not prepared to discount what they hear because i've seen it too many times where people like this hear things others cannot.

  • Science doesn't care what you believe.

    and, with respect, the people who make high end records don't necessarily care whether you are convinced they know what they're hearing or not.

    there is the (relatively) famous story about Geoff Emetic complaining that AIR's new desk had a channel that just didn't sound "right' to him.

    They took it out and benched it several times and couldn't find anything wrong with it.

    Eventually, after he continued to complain, Rupert Neve came in (it was his design) and tested the module and discovered that it had an anomaly at 56k Hertz! Now anyone would quite sensibly 'argue' that no one can hear that high, and neither could Geoff.

    But he clearly and repeatably, heard something that the anomaly in the super highs was doing to the audible range. Even though normal testing didn't show it and no one else could hear it.

    Similarly, Record plant NY had 4 rooms. At one point Shelly Yakus complained that he heard something wrong with the power amp on the lows of the right speaker in one of the rooms.

    they took it out and checked it, and it checked out perfectly. They put it back.

    Few days later, Shelly is back in the room and again says "hey, that amp is still there. it sounds wrong".

    So they swap out the amp and he's happy, and they send the offending amp back to the manufacturer (it's a Bryston) to be checked out.

    Bristol finds nothing wrong with it either, no matter how they test it.

    They send it back.

    Record Plant puts it back into service but upstairs in the mix room, not back in Studio A.

    Months later, Shelly walks into the mix room (for the first time in a while) hits play and immediately points his finger and exclaims: "There's that fucking Bryston!"

    I don't discount the people whose work I know is stellar when they hear things I can't.

    once again, "I can't hear it" and "most people can't hear it" is NOT THE SAME THING as "no one can hear it".

    and if only ONE person can really hear it, then it's real.

    It only means you're not testing for it correctly.

  • Please just tell me if the signal goes into some kind of amplifying unit (e.g. DSP) or not? If they are not using the power from the external power cord (through the PSU) to amplify the signal, then is it just magic? I don't quite understand why you people keep saying signal chain blah blah blah, it's just like you insist that the earth is flat while we are trying to find out whether the earth is a sphere or not.

  • Well becouse in digital domain bit is true or false no matter what voltage fluctuations are in resonable ranges .

    The same data can be represented in 3.3 V logic as in 5V logic.

    5V DSP doesn't care if the true state is represented by 5.1 or 5.125 V or even 4.98711 V

    It is the same value = True.

    Then another question is what such gold cable do to 50Hz AC power ? It is more true 50HZ or more stabilised 220 V AC ?

    Switching PSU's can operate between 110 to 240 V withot any issues.

    Large filter caps on PSU output can store so much energy then even short disconnection of the AC powet will be irrevelant.

    So can you elaborate what exactly those magic cables do to AC power line ?

  • wwittman I totally get your 20k mic analogy but I don’t think power cables fall into the same category. I definitely don’t need and can’t afford a 20k mic but I am glad that some top pros can and do as it makes the audio I listen too from some of my favourite artist sound spectacular.

    As Damien says though the mic example is part of the audio signal path as are guitar cables and mic cables. A power cable isn’t and this especially true of digital gear.

    Yup... as long as the zeros and ones make it from one end to the other, it works... period.

    10 dollar HDMI cable, or 100 dollar HDMI cable? Doesn't matter as long as it works.

  • Quality microphones and power-regulators for stage/studio are not valid analogies to the power-cable question. Both provide measurable improvements. No such data is provided for the "high-end" power-cable. Further, lab gear is much more sensitive than the human ear. Thus one thing is for sure; if you can't measure a difference then you certainly can't hear it.

    Over the years I've seen numerous blind-tests of cables, mostly speaker cables, and testers routinely fail to hear any difference between decent quality cabled and overpriced snake-oil products. Some HiFi-nerds even claim that there's an audible improvement to digital audio transported through their precious high-end cables :rolleyes:

  • Hi guys,

    I really have to admit that I bought a really really high expensive upgraded power chord.

    It cost about a third of a Kemper, but it is worth it.

    Since I bought it, my power chords have more power than ever.

    And my fingers can move as fast as Eddie v.H.‘s fingers.

    So my advice for all of you: buy those upgraded power chords,

    it boosts your power chords.

  • The OP seems biased to believe the benefits of the cable. The majority of other folks appear biased to the contrary, because science.

    That being the case, perhaps brianllun should just buy it and see for himself. If he can hear a difference and / or it makes him happy, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

    Regarding wwittman's examples, e.g. hearing what turned out to be a 56k anomaly, I'm inclined to agree that if one person can hear it, even if others can't, then there's something going on. The world is a complicated place, and it's unlikely that we tiny little humans have it all figured out. I think where this intersects with the calls for scientific measurability is pretty straightforward. In his 56k examples it turns out there was something measurable. You just have to know what to test.

    This is one of my little pet peeves with those who have adopted Science as their new religion: "If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist!" A thousand years ago, we had no way of measuring radio waves. And yet they existed just the same, completely unperturbed by humanity's lack of belief in their existence. However, in the last couple of centuries (mere milliseconds in the timeline of human evolution) we've been able to detect, measure and manipulate them. So now, of course, they exist.

    My favorite quote from Sir Isaac Newton comes from conversations with fellow scientists who were less educated in the field they were arguing with him about than he was. "Sir, I have studied the matter. You have not."

    As for the wonders of hi fi homeopathy, I have not studied the matter. However, that doesn't mean I have a completely uninformed perspective. In a previous lifetime, before I discovered the wonders of computer programming, I made a living running a sales consulting company. I was very good at what I did, enough so that others paid me to train their staff. In other words, I used to be a professional at manipulating other people and selling snake oil. Not my finest hour, but the experience was nonetheless educational on a number of fronts.

    One of them has to do with being able to detect things that have clearly come from the business end of a bull. Maybe there's something magical and unmeasurable about their cables. Maybe not. What I do know is that their marketing blurb is one of the finest examples of intentional deception and misdirection I've come across in quite some time. That's a pretty good red flag to all who aren't color blind.

    If you'd like the technical breakdown, here's how it works. The art of sales has to do with making a pitch. The customer usually says no to the first "closing question," the industry term for asking them to commit to the transaction. What follows is a repeating cycle of rebuttal and close. And here's a critical consideration for that - when they tell you no, you have to find out why. Only when you know their objection are you able to offer the appropriate rebuttal that refutes it, allowing you to move on and ask for the sale again.

    But there's a problem. People don't always tell you why they're saying no. Or they don't tell you the real reason. "It costs too much" may be what they're saying, but "My wife will kill me if I buy this" could be the real reason. Even if you can prove that it doesn't cost too much, you still don't win, because that's not really why they're saying no.

    So, there's a technique called "smoking out the hidden objection," where you preemptively try to get the reasons people will say no on the table so that you can then address them and ask for the sale. That entire inane blurb is a classic example of this ploy. These folks know that most people are going to be skeptical that there's any value to a power cord, let alone an expensive one. But customers may not bring up Science. So, the marketing folks do it for you, laying out all the objections they expect, then addressing them, clearing the hurdles in the way of making a sale.

    Of course, this neither proves nor disproves that there's a value to their product. That said, I can tell you from personal experience that 100% of the people I've encountered professionally who do this sort of thing are, in fact, selling snake oil.

    I wouldn't be skeptical of this product just because it seems scientifically unlikely, because I've experienced a few things in my own life that I struggle to understand in that context. I do, however, run as fast as I can in the opposite direction any time I read marketing material like that. But then, maybe I'm just allergic to snakes and their byproducts. :)

  • wwittman I understand what you are saying and I accept that you have WAY more knowledge and experience in this field that I will ever have. You also almost certainly have better ears than me by quite some margin. However, I also know I have seen you saying the same thing ;)) that you should never believe what artists and producers etc say in interviews because they have a tendency to make shit up for their own personal reasons; whether it be fame, infamy, endorsement deals whatever. A lot of these stories are apocryphal and get passed down like Chinese Whispers with each person embellishing the story or getting part of it wrong. Before you know it, "did you know Eric Johnson can tell what type of velcro holds his Wah to the pedal board by the way the wah sounds?"

    One of the funniest example of this was an interview I heard with Carlos Sanata where he said he could hear it was BB King playing even with the sound turned off :D Carlos is a great player with a beautiful tone but he does say some crazy shit in interviews.

    As Chris Duncan pointed out, there is sales psychology in most things in life. The Rupert Neve story could easily be one of those situations. It could be looked at like;

    Client is unhappy.

    We need to make client happy.

    We test everything and there is nothing wrong.

    But, client is still unhappy.

    We need to make client happy. He is paying the bills.

    Brief Rupert about need to make client happy and feel special.

    Bring in Ruppert.

    Ruppert makes up some stuff about 56k and client now feels validated and special for being the only one that could hear it.

    I'm not saying that is definitely what happened. I wasn't there, I don't personally know anyone involved etc but it is at least one plausible explanation that doesn't conflict with scientific evidence thus far.

  • If'f someone can hear it it is measurable. If it is measurable it is science.

    When it comes to power cables never heard of publications that prove that some high class gold power cables have any influence on the audio quality.

    it's undoubtedly "measurable" IF you know what you're measuring.

    as I said in the examples, it doesn't always mean that people measuring either know what to look for or are convinced what they are measuring is "audible"

    there's a lot of internets "myth busting" that works great for hobbyists

  • Over the years I've seen numerous blind-tests of cables, mostly speaker cables, and testers routinely fail to hear any difference between decent quality cabled and overpriced snake-oil products.

    again, the difference between "most people" and "anyone"

    most people can't tell the difference between 1 cent sharp or not. but SOME people can every single time

    it's fine if you don't hear it.

    but once you start to say "NO ONE" can hear it, you're losing the plot

    unless you're invested in the "nothing matters' internets philosophy. which is your right, but it's not where great records are being made.