Playing response and "tone life suck"

    It is hard to explain what I mean but maybe you experienced a similar thing:


    The Kemper is perfect for strumming stuff. The sound itself is always perfect, yes, no complains about that.


    But let me exaggerate to make clear what I mean: My problem occurs not only with slower solo playing and arpegiated stuff but especially when I play fast single notes - "technical stuff" with let's say a high gain Plexi profile (scales, arpegios, tapping) the expected response is not a hundred percent there while play. The Kemper does not react as expected (=tube amp), it seems to suck life from my playing and my fingers at every single note that I don't hit hard and clear enough. Does this make sense? The notes seem to die out much easier and faster than with my amps or even modellers. I have to hit the strings very much harder and play much more accurately to achieve a similar tonal result which can be disturbing while playing. The Kemper is not at all forgiving with sloppier playing or weakly hitting a note within a fast passage - the note will die out much more easier. So the amp feeling while playing is not realy there. I've tried with compressors, boosts etc. but this does not really fix it.


    Does this make sense for you? Is it a mere "sustain issue"? Do I miss anything or have you experienced similar issues? How do you fix this?


    Thanks

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

    Edited once, last by Alienator ().

    Like 1
    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Have you tried dialling up Amp Compression in the Rig menu?

    Yes, I use this a lot and it's a great tool. This does not encrease the punchyness, loudness, and the sustain of a note hit as I mean it.

    Quote from Dimi84

    Are you comparing the real rig to its profile that you made, using the same monitoring? If not, hard to say much.

    Well, kind of yes and no. I meant a general problem in playing trough the Kemper no matter which profile you use and no matter what you hear it through. A profile imho and experience kind of sucks loudness and sustain. It is more difficult to play fast runs etc. because there always is that mini tone dying at the end of every hit or in the middle of it if you don't hit the string harder than usual (usual means tubes or as I said even with modelers: The Helix for example does not have this problem, it has tons of that punchyness I mean but it does not sound as good as I want it).


    I have found a video on YouTube that explains exactly what I mean. Watch this (description of the issue at about 7:00):


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    I feel like even with more classic blues and rock solos I experience this. Are there ways out?

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

    Edited 3 times, last by Alienator ().

    if you are using the front panel noise gate or a noise gate stomp, disable these.


    try increasing 'Pick' a little

    try adding a Green Scream


    make sure you don't have an external tuner etc. in front (these caused issues before) and go directly guitar -> front input


    I play quite a bit of lead, maybe not the super technical stuff you refer to, but I never had any issues.

    :/ thanks... the only thing I haven't messed with is the pick parameter. Maybe it can help.


    I still wonder why I never heard anybody talk about it except the guy in the video. Maybe you realize this more if you occasionally switch to amps or other units. Imho there is a significant difference in how hard and clean you have to hit the strings with my Kempers (btw: that did not stop me from buying a third Kemper for a second rehearsal room - crazy me) in comparison to my amps or for example my Helix in order to get the same tonal or "punch" / "dynamic" result that you have in your head and feeling before you hit that note.


    Btw: fractal users criticize this point in my understanding when they talk about how "better" their stuff is (as everybody else does with their units or amps - can't hear it anymore). Maybe there could be a software solution to the issue. But in order for this to happen there must be more people realizing this. This leads me again to the above question: how is it possible nobody realizes this :/?

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

    Edited 2 times, last by Alienator ().

    Quote from Alienator

    :/ thanks... the only thing I haven't messed with is the pick parameter. Maybe it can help.


    I still wonder why I never heard anybody talk about it except the guy in the video. Maybe you realize this more if you occasionally switch to amps or other units. Imho there is a significant difference in how hard and clean you have to hit the strings with my Kempers (btw: that did not stop me from buying a third Kemper for a second rehearsal room - crazy me) in comparison to my amps or for example my Helix in order to get the same tonal or "punch" / "dynamic" result that you have in your head and feeling before you hit that note.


    Btw: fractal users criticize this point in my understanding when they talk about how "better" their stuff is (as everybody else does with their units or amps - can't hear it anymore). Maybe there could be a software solution to the issue. But in order for this to happen there must be more people realizing this. This leads me again to the above question: how is it possible nobody realizes this :/?

    DUDE! I have this same exact problem! I have discussed this with a friend of mine and he also has this issue. This is pretty much the only major issue I have with the Kemper. I could find a patch that sounds pretty saturated, distortion wise while playing chords but once I start single note work it seems a lot cleaner and the single dies so quickly. I have messed with a tone of settings such as the amp compression, compression stomp and the noise gate. Nothing seems to make it feel quite right. Adding a distortion stomp like a green scream does help a little bit, but then it alters the tone and things sound way too heavy. I am at a loss of what to do.

    Watched the shared video, the section mentioned. Seems that he's just comparing playing through the amp and cab at loud volume vs kemper through (I assume) some monitor?


    If so, that's not the kemper's fault, really. And I'd expect helix to "suffer" quite similarly.


    He then mentions that kemper "does not clean up like the amp". But is he comparing profile of his set up vs the amp? Or some random profile? Because you can definitely profile a tone that doesn't clean up well --- and it's not like the profile suddenly will.


    If you have a helix around you could try profiling it and see if that solves your issue, in case it does profile well (modelling units at times don't). If not, and you have a real amp tone you like, you may profile that.


    But then compare using similar monitoring - volume, without the guitar Cab influencing the interaction. If you still feel something's not there that you desire, at that point, Ok, maybe on to something I've not noticed.


    It's just that the above seems needed, imo, to narrow down the issue - - just what it's about - - and what's causing it.

    The bonanza

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 1

    Thanks, these comments make me think. Instantly I would say that that negative feel is always the same no matter if I listen to myself play through headphones, studio monitors, in ear monitoring on stage, active or passive speakers or mere guitar cabs. On the other hand I never turn up the Kemper's volume itself or any monitoring/cab that loud that it would be at an amps "normal" stage volume - normally I use in ear monitoring. Technically there should be (imho) no such a thing as I described (really not!), I mean that's what digital units are there for. But who knows. I will also try to play around with the input levels. From my understanding and from what your above comments were theoretically this would make a ton of sense. Thanks for telling that there were others with the same experiences. I will try to make some tests at much louder volumes again to verify this and maybe there is an unnecessary issue we can solve together. That would be awesome guys.

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

    Edited once, last by Alienator ().

    Quote from paults

    If you had your tube amplifier miced up in a separate room, and listened to it through in ear monitors onstage, you would experience the exact same phenomenon.

    Yes, maybe you are right. But either way it is a disturbing and negative thing that must be eliminated. As I said: my modellers (I had an AX8 and now I own a Helix) don't do this and this is also how their sound is described: as a miced up amp in another room. Isn't this the benefit of algorhythms? To eliminate the negative stuff and keep all the amp's glory? Imho it makes no sense to justify what is described here by pointing at the negatives from the real world.

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

    Edited 4 times, last by Alienator ().

    Quote from Alienator

    Yes, maybe you are right. But either way it is a disturbing and negative thing that must be eliminated. As I said: my modellers (I had an AX8 and now I own a Helix) don't do this and this is also how their sound is described: as a miced up amp in another room. Isn't this the benefit of algorhythms? To eliminate the negative stuff and keep all the amp's glory? It makes no sense to justify what is described here by pointing at the negatives from the real world.

    Kemper is meant to replicate miced or direct amp tones.


    If the issue here would indeed be cab interaction, you could run kemper through a tube or solid state amp (easier if powered version) and use direct profiles with a real guitar cab.

    The bonanza

    maybe this helps:


    Tube Bias

    “Tube Bias” influences the overtone structure of the distortion. While the effect on the character of the sound is fairly subtle, you should feel a quite a difference in the distortion dynamics: as you increase the amount of “Tube Bias” the guitar will go into distortion much earlier in the dynamic range, yet still retain a lot of dynamic headroom. At maximum value, the distortion characteristics mimic those of a Tube Screamer™.


    -from the manual

    parameter is in the AMPLIFIER section

    And that's something that comes up all the time in fractal forum btw. It's one of the most common complaints. These digital units "suffer" just as much as kemper does when it comes to cab interaction thingy. It's not surprising considering what the issue is about - - run a real amp without the monitoring of a cab (and arguably a tube power amp, some include good solid state amps) and the issue appears there too.


    That said... IF axe fx - helix don't suffer from perceived issue through the same monitoring as kemper, maybe the problem is different. But then why not profile these units, if at reach, and see what happens?.. Or ideally a real amp that does what you'd like while run through the monitoring you'd use kemper with?


    I myself used axe fx 3 quite extensively recently as well as kemper and tube amps. There's differently differences in "feel" between the units even if I set out to match a real amp with both. How much of this transfers from one tone or another, if at all, is a big topic.


    But at least profiling a source tone that sounds and feels how you want it to through a particular monitoring set up seems elemental in such testing. Difficult to go around it provided you have already tried a variety of profiles.


    And monitoring needs to remain consistent.

    The bonanza

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 1

    This "tone suck" isn't the fault of the Profiler. It's the lack of interaction between a guitar speaker at high volume and subtle early stage feedback from the pickups of the guitar. Think about what is happening in a high gain setting from a real amp and guitar. You pick the string and from that moment the tone you hear is a mix of the tone of the guitar/amp/cab interaction in a high volume situation. The Kemper connected to monitors at far less volume cannot replicate this feedback phenomenon because there is no interaction between guitar/amp/cab in a high volume situation. The closest you might get to replicating this live amp feel is to use a direct profile into a real guitar cab at high volume and see if that feedback happens. It's the feedback that introduces the sustain. Without it, you will have "tone suck".

    Other than that, playing with kemper parameters could possibly offer some help, depending on just what the issue is to begin with (which isn't clear to me). For example bias parameters alters tonal nuances. These can definitely change the "feel" of a profile. Power sag even, I believe, could possibly offer some help in altering this feel.

    The bonanza

    Quote from CelticGibson

    This "tone suck" isn't the fault of the Profiler. It's the lack of interaction between a guitar speaker at high volume and subtle early stage feedback from the pickups of the guitar. Think about what is happening in a high gain setting from a real amp and guitar. You pick the string and from that moment the tone you hear is a mix of the tone of the guitar/amp/cab interaction in a high volume situation. The Kemper connected to monitors at far less volume cannot replicate this feedback phenomenon because there is no interaction between guitar/amp/cab in a high volume situation. The closest you might get to replicating this live amp feel is to use a direct profile into a real guitar cab at high volume and see if that feedback happens. It's the feedback that introduces the sustain. Without it, you will have "tone suck".

    For me with FRFR onstage, the pure cab parameter makes that early stage feedback much more natural feeling.

    Sounds a bit like "wrong profiles" and/or low volume to me..


    I never use headphones for playing(only mixing from time to time) I hate this sound for the exactly same reasons as you mention here.


    Anyway..even if I would use headphones/IEMs I do not expect a "great sound" but I would be sure that it sounds great FOH/DAW.I often record late at night very silently and at the next morning I am most often impressed how good it sounds louder.Maybe because I pick harder and more accurate when doing it silently in the night;Hearing my pick on every note I play;


    Oh..and yes..the Kemper is the only modeller which does not add anything to a Marshall type of profile.It is by far the "least forgiving" of all modellers because it reacts exactly like the (well) profiled amp.If you play it (Marshall circuit)on very low volume it sounds ugly.I always have said that the fractal stuff sounds like "on steroids" which is maybe a good thing celebrating ourselves as guitar heroes at very low volumes deep in the night but it does not help "in the real world".Everything "amp like" needs some volume.I can tell you that some time ago a lot of very famous producers/players used the ADA MP1 because it added a "nice compression" for "easier shred" to their beloved Marshall type of sound.Even at low volumes.Actually it was very famous for this.