Fractal Audio FM3 announced

Quote from flyingheelhook

I think John Mayer has like 5 of everything. I wouldn't read too much in him using any product.

I don't mind too much who uses what unit in terms of what I myself do.

But appeals to authority -- or popularity, to "the best artists" -- have been a go-to talking point when pointing to supposed "superiority" of A or B. If Andy Sneap calls for an editor, it doesn't matter -- if he uses kemper for amp tones, well, kemper is "much superiorer" to anything else. If Townsend profiles his mesa and isn't too happy with the results, going full-on axe fx, obviously axe fx is just "better than the much inferiorer kemper" to some, too.

That said, if a band uses a given product and is getting tones you like, the unit is probably part of the reason why they are getting a particular tonal end result. Other units could also get relatively similar results, some of the time. There's certainly some causal influence and it may matter -- perhaps a band's usage illustrates just that.

Quote from Nikos

On the other side..take what Christoph said.Even with a KPA2 the current one will continue to get "supported" by all means just like Kemper does with their synths for some two decades now.

Support in what sense though? In the video, he mentions that old profiles done with kemper 1 would sound the same when used in a newer kemper. I am not sure this implies the older kemper will continue being sold or "supported" the same way it is now. Maybe it does; but did he go into such specifics somewhere?

When I first bought kemper, quite a few guys I was working with at the time looked down on the unit, some of them with much more "success" and "expertise" in music industry than myself, generally speaking. Axe fx was the devil too. If I went by what they'd repeat, I'd never use kemper or axe fx until I felt some "expert consensus" was reached, however biased that perception could have anyway been.

This is also a business where "expertise" is not identified as easily compared to when, say, talking about academic journals on a specific issue. There's a lot to consider. There's issues about just what expertise means, how we can identify it in any rational manner, and just what exactly it concerns, what topic, field, sub-field.

A local producer here clearly has more expertise than the average guitar player when it comes to producing records; but this may not be true when it comes to... vibrato .. or even profiling There's empty appeals to authority or popularity to so-called "experts" (even though these may not be experts when it comes to a particular issue anyway), appeals that lack nuance.

It's not that Andy Sneap cannot have a real reason why he uses Kemper instead of a pod, of course, and that his own expertise as a producer is not relevant. Surely it is. There's reason to think that someone of his skills has some real arguments of merit for using kemper. There's also reason to "trust expertise" depending on how much knowledge I lack on a given issue. There's even reason to think that Mayer using Axe Fx 3 does mean something on that end -- even though I agree some will take this "too far", absolutely.

By "too far" I mean... the usual stuff: " omg fractil much superiorer bekos mayer use axe efeks! He use kempar before, and now axe, so axe better!". I think everybody and their poodle who try not to approach these topics through a massive veil of bias will see through these arguments.

But there also comes a point where we do have enough "expertise" ourselves to make particular claims or asses given arguments, evidence, pla pla.

Clearly many here are equipped on that end. To me, it's probably part of the reason kemper even includes an A/B function: it's a way to be able to test the unit for a particular purpose, and enable this for people who also aren't so used to performing such comparisons otherwise. It's a slight... "expansion of expertise", if you may, in a way It gives us a tool to assess just how good the end result/what kemper does is -- that being defined in terms of emulating the source tone.

PS: somewhat off-topic post. Wont post another

Besides, kemper could release a unit akin to FM3 format without updating the hardware for along time, similarly to kemper unit, if that's what people want.

I would definitely be interested in such a unit. Kemper as it is.. it's a relatively big unit for me compared to FM3 and some others. If I could reduce my gear footprint without sacrificing too much "tone" there's a big chance I would do it.

Considering just how much technology may have moved forward since kemper's original release, cost changes, this, that, I wonder whether it'd be possible to indeed create a more portable "profile" player at a substantially reduced price.

There may be other business considerations when it comes to this, some similar ones coming into play with fractal not importing a version of ares to ax8 (albeit there could be technical limitations we don't know about anyway, as I stated/think) ..

----- Further remark : I am told fractal did, in fact, port some elements of ares into ax8. Not sure if this is true or not. I assume it'll be less than that what FM3 runs, in any case, even if so -----

But in terms of usage, the more I think about such a super portable kemper the more I like the idea.

Quote from Nikos

Even with a KPA2 the current one will continue to get "supported" by all means just like Kemper does with their synths for some two decades now.

The Access Virus has, from what I've seen, 10 different hardware formats in 4 different series. Given, the synth and guitar demographics are quite different, but it suggests Christoph isn't afraid of making old hardware, if we are sticking to the strict definition of people in this thread, "obsolete". They also haven't supported the old Access line with continued updates and some of their old users are clamoring for a new iteration or update. A neat little video about the Virus' history goes into this quite a bit:

At the end of the video is an interview with Christoph from NAMM where, when asked about the Virus, he makes it clear that their focus is on the Profiler and mayyybe some time down the road they might do something with the Virus line. And certainly the company is under no obligation to if they don't see any need for additions and consider the line fully mature. Let's just not misrepresent things in order to make Company A look good and Company B look bad.

I don't mean to sidetrack, but I think it's important we be consistent when it comes to Kemper & any other company. To the best of my knowledge, much like Christoph's earlier suggestion to keep things backwards compatible if there should be a new Kemper hardware, Fractal has done the same with the AxeII and Ax8, and made a post on their forum about continuing to support both the now elder products. If in the future that turns out to be misleading or untrue, then it's certainly fair to criticize them for promising old users and failing to deliver.

Funny...every time a new product is released its the same debate....

Is Kemper behind the times or not. Do we prefer Axe or Kempers business model..

Everyone as a purchaser has an opinion of what they want so apart from stating what we individually want, you can't really go beyond that.

For me....I'm primarily a gigging musician. I use my KPA just like an amp, hence I have the power rack. I don't want a floor unit alone unless it has a power amp and that connects back to a cab through a single lead. I'm happy with the amp/controller config. so I can ruck up to a festival and plug direct into the provided cab, and take a direct output.

I accept others may prefer a floorunit alone. For me its one of the main downsides of the Helix, although it would be one less unit to lug around so I do see benefit.

If sound improvements are limited on the current KPA, then I support new hardware, other wise I'm not bothered. I don't care about dual profiles and more sophisticated routing as its got enough tonal variety already.

I also agree with Kemper's priorities ( delays, reverbs, editor and cab)...

I don't think that makes me a fan boy ( someone who blindly defends their product) but I also genuinely have no GAS for another amp.

I'd prefer to see a wireless remote to get rid of that single wire!

Quote from flyingheelhook

I think John Mayer has like 5 of everything. I wouldn't read too much in him using any product.

I know he likes his Kempers too.. Has a few of them spread out.

Quote from V8guitar

Funny...every time a new product is released its the same debate....

Is Kemper behind the times or not. Do we prefer Axe or Kempers business model..

Everyone as a purchaser has an opinion of what they want so apart from stating what we individually want, you can't really go beyond that.

Totally agreed. Where I get caught up in these isn't so much that someone prefers a "business model" over another, but tries to justify it by suggesting a competitor isn't "serious", or implies obsolescence is planned with some nefarious intent, or that it demonstrates how the KPA is a professional tool and the others are just "toys & gadgets", etc. It isn't a zero-sum game.

Quote from V8guitar

Funny...every time a new product is released its the same debate....

Is Kemper behind the times or not. Do we prefer Axe or Kempers business model..

Everyone as a purchaser has an opinion of what they want so apart from stating what we individually want, you can't really go beyond that.

For me....I'm primarily a gigging musician. I use my KPA just like an amp, hence I have the power rack. I don't want a floor unit alone unless it has a power amp and that connects back to a cab through a single lead. I'm happy with the amp/controller config. so I can ruck up to a festival and plug direct into the provided cab, and take a direct output.

I accept others may prefer a floorunit alone. For me its one of the main downsides of the Helix, although it would be one less unit to lug around so I do see benefit.

If sound improvements are limited on the current KPA, then I support new hardware, other wise I'm not bothered. I don't care about dual profiles and more sophisticated routing as its got enough tonal variety already.

I also agree with Kemper's priorities ( delays, reverbs, editor and cab)...

I don't think that makes me a fan boy ( someone who blindly defends their product) but I also genuinely have no GAS for another amp.

I'd prefer to see a wireless remote to get rid of that single wire!

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At times, preferences can change though -- and be influenced by other people's arguments; or preferences may be based on a misunderstanding of A or B.

In this case, if someone thought you were a "fan boy" for not having GAS for another product... It's probably safe to assume what their intent is. The fact you don't have such GAS is a threat to their own adherence to another product.

Quote from DonPetersen

Didn't you sign an NDA?

Oops. Busted.

I own a Kemper and an AX8. I've never worried about the superiority debate. Both sound amazing. Both are very high quality builds. I'm a weekly gigging musician, started with the Kemper but moved to the AX8 for convenience. However, it lacked a couple of functions that I can get with the KPA, so I'm back using that as my gigging rig. I've asked Fractal to add them and I'm sure it's only a matter of time. Just like it's only a matter of time before we get a FM9 that truly captures everything the Ax III can do and more - all in a floorboard. The digital age is amazing that way.

I personally love the idea of new product lines. Everyone has their own preferences, needs, and desires. But it is great that a company that puts out the highest digital modeling quality as Fractal is willing and able to develop multiple product lines that appeal to most everyone's particular situation. Some of you only play in your bedrooms. Great. Until you join a band and start gigging. Then maybe you'd wish for something different. Same with those of you who are fine with a powered rack unit and floorboard and FRFR. Until you get a bad back and wish you had less gear to muck around and suddenly embrace the idea of straight to FOH. Anyway, I'd love to see Kemper put out a floor unit - with or without profiling abilities. Just like we are happy they Kemper finally has a decent editor. I can't imaging Kemper is against new product lines aimed at target audiences they currently don't fully capture. Hopefully it's just a matter of time.

Quote from midwest

Until you get a bad back and wish you had less gear to muck around and suddenly embrace the idea of straight to FOH

Anytime I feel like whining about the weight of my powered toaster, I just look across the room at my Marshall 4x12 and suddenly my back feels much better.

I’m on the waitlist. Seems to good to be true. I was looking at the HX Stomp for the tiny footprint, but Line 6 crippled or beyond usefulness .

As always, playing the devil's advocate:

Isn't it freaking amazing that 6 or 7 years down the line, the Kemper Profiler is still a top-of-the-shelf guitar device?

I can't really think of any digital products I own that are like that.

Eagerly awaiting the editor and the stomps and the... coffee holder accessory

Yeah, Mayer's well-documented love of tube amps (Dumble's, Two-Rock's, and his own PRS amp) confused some purists when they've seen him with a KPA. At Coachella he used an Axe III and recently stated he no longer takes amps to sessions and instead uses his Akai MPC. Given the plethora of options on the market, and you're John Friggin Mayer who can buy/use anything you want, makes sense that he likes to dabble with everything out there. Definitely can't/shouldn't be dragging a Dumble around anywhere you go.

Quote from guizmobro

nightlight  Monkey_Man

You both have a point. However, my reality is that I'm a living room guitar player, playing exclusively with headphones and studio monitors (right out of the Kemper). It sounds amazing.

If I want to record that amazing sound, I need to spend more than EUR 500 on an interface (I saw admins posting on this forum that interfaces in that price range are necessary to capture the Kemper's sound in all its wonderfulness).

You're advising to look into the MOTU ultralight (thanks for the tip btw), which is an 18x22 interface. Now, never say never, but there's like a 1% chance I will one day need all those ins & outs. I don't sing... I might need 2 inputs for a hardware synth once in a while and that's it. I just want to record some tracks within my Logic session with all my software instruments (omnisphere, ezkeys, ezdrummer, etc.). I don't need a gazillion ins & outs. Basically, I pretty much only would use the SPDIF in (not a reamping kind of guy, so no point in using the spdif out). It kind of seems overshoot to buy such an interface and to only use one freaking input.

I never recorded with Line6 or Fractal hardware, but I can't imagine the interface being that bad... I would be quite curious about that actually.

If you look at it, pretty much all direct competitors of Kemper do have an inbuilt interface. It's not the end of the world that the Kemper doesn't, but it still gives me a lot of headaches in terms of what to buy

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I totally understand why someone would prefer to have a built in USB interface and also the apparent omission by Kemper when the competition has them as standard. For me though, having a portable amp to plug in to my existing interface is more beneficial than using it as the centre piece of a recording set up.

I'm a mixture of bedroom/living room player, monthly band practicer, occasional recorder and rare gigger. I've owned a number of interfaces over the years, from cheap to more expensive, recording direct guitar to full bands and call BS on the notion that you need to spend that kind of money to capture a decent tone from the Kemper. Most interfaces have some tonal effect, which many will identify as 'better' and 'worse' when I just hear EQ differences.

If you're going to be recording a few basic songs for your own use or to share with interested peers, then just about any stable interface will do. If you're planning on DIY recording a full band, multi-mic'ed drums and vocals etc. then you need more inputs but the difference in sonic quality between a high end MOTU and a cheap, used Tascam 122 is just not going to notice at all; what will is your recording and mixing ability. We might be struck by a brilliant guitar tone in a brilliantly performed, engineered and mastered song but we won't be struck by a great guitar tone in a poorly performed, poorly engineered and mastered song.

I'm not suggesting that a great interface isn't worth it, it is. But it's about creating a balanced system without weakness. Great interface and rubbish monitoring? Great monitoring and rubbish microphones? Great gear and rubbish recording skills? You can't buy your way to great, fully blown recordings; it's a long road of learning. Don't let gear snobbery stop you from the joys of home recording. Besides, what you buy now to learn and progress with will probably be unsupported by Windows by the time you're able to push its abilities!

hey guys,

this thread is turning into a very general discussion, please remember the title and stay on topic.

we obviously have no issues with users discussing 'other gear' (hence this subforum) here, but since these threads seem to move along in a very similar fashion, please make sure you're not just repeating sentiments that were already expressed somewhere else and stay on topic.

thank you

Quote from V8guitar

Funny...every time a new product is released its the same debate....

Is Kemper behind the times or not. Do we prefer Axe or Kempers business model..

Everyone as a purchaser has an opinion of what they want so apart from stating what we individually want, you can't really go beyond that.

Thank you..easy as that..

@Dimi

AFStandard/Ultra/2/2+/2xl/XL+/Fm8/Ax8/Fm3..plus all the Footcontrollers of which the first do not fit to the AF3..how many of these products are not "supported" anymore(or won't be so soon) with all the consequences for updates/resell value and so on?The AX8 will not be "supported" anymore(CC said this himself) just after three years after they released it..enough said..

If I have the opinion that Fractal is more of a funny cult with a guru and his disciples than about serious business it is my opinion.I said the same many (many) years ago about protools(now avid) and received a lot of bad reaction for this from the very same people who today are more pissed about pro tools than I ever have been..

But hey..if someone loves something so badly I will not try to convince anyone not to..but I am allowed to have an opinion.

Quote from Nikos

If I have the opinion that Fractal is more of a funny cult with a guru and his disciples than about serious business it is my opinion.I said the same many (many) years ago about protools(now avid) and received a lot of bad reaction for this from the very same people who today are more pissed about pro tools than I ever have been..

But hey..if someone loves something so badly I will not try to convince anyone not to..but I am allowed to have an opinion.

Absolutely allowed to have an opinion; it's not like we use an electric chair as some kind of opinion-changing punishment. But others don't even need to "love fractal" to think these criticisms are unfounded, exaggerated, you-name-it. There seems to be a difference between "preferring one business model over another" (where they are truly different) and just trying to define-out-of-seriousness an entire company.

Quote from Dimi84

Absolutely allowed to have an opinion; it's not like we use an electric chair as some kind of opinion-changing punishment. But others don't even need to "love fractal" to think these criticisms are unfounded, exaggerated, you-name-it. There seems to be a difference between "preferring one business model over another" (where they are truly different) and just trying to define-out-of-seriousness an entire company.

I don't care..really..I am just so happy that I did not went for the AX8 some weeks ago.I know how I would feel now If I did..