Fractal Audio FM3 announced

  • Ok, this will be my monthly or quarterly post. I'm still baffled by how many guitar players still think that Fractal is really a viable solution regardless whether some "Pros" are using Fractal.


    How can you not hear how lifeless and artificial Fractal sounds, If you think I'm being harsh, just listen and hear the massive degradation that happened to Metallica's sound ever since they started using fractal . MY God how many fails did Metallica have with the AXE FX and some would still blame the sound Man or something else without acknowledging how inferior the amp modeling really is in Fractal Product.


    If you're into synthesis and new alternative sounds, you can consider Fractal Products, but if you want guitar tones including edge of breakup don't even dream of being able to get those sounds using any fractal products. this is very clear in the edge of breakup tones, that frankly suck, and it's very clear in almost every performance that Metallica had with fractal products. This is the reality that many modelers users don't seem to be able to see through, just too much hype and deceptive marketing gimmicks to sift through.


    Fractal tones never sit properly in a mix, by many pros accounts also.


    Don't trust me, trust your ears.

  • You've been challenged many times to pick out Fractal vs Kemper or amp and you refuse consistently on many different threads. Sure, we can spend all day cherry picking when Axe or Kemper or amp sound good or bad depending on the sample. That's fairly uninteresting at this point since people who are honest with themselves know they are all tools that can be made to sound great and useful, and all are used on current and old records without a complaint or problem. Of course, your preference of solution may vary. Suggesting otherwise is simply appealing to bias.

  • If fractal tones never sit "properly" in a mix it should be easy to tell apart axe fx and Kemper in such a mix context. Provided this, interested in participating in a few blind tests?

    The bonanza

  • How many times you need to test before it's confirmed that Fractal is not up to Par and that something is definitely wrong with their modeling Algorithms that doesn't allow it to fit properly in a mix.


    Here's an example of top tier Pros, for all who care about that, I don't know how many notes you can you hear from the Solo or any other guitar. at that time they were using AXE FX II and some lost soul will come out and say, the AXE FX III would be better. Most will not come out and say it or put it as I do, , but again let your ears be the Judge, is this really a guitar tone that resembles anything that you would expect the real amps being modeled would have sounded like?

    If you like to noodle by yourself , Fractal might be Ok, but once you introduce any other instrument, you can say good bye to your guitar in the Mix.. You would be stuck with one of two choices, either have the guitar drown everything else so nothing but the guitar will be heard, or to hear other instruments with the guitar magically disappearing using Fractal Magic as this example below, your guitar will disappear in the mix, because Fractal just has a problem with this.


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    Edited once, last by Dean_R ().

  • There's many performances where Metallica sounds great with axe fx if our comparative standard is what many see as the best tones they were getting with tube amps. There's also performances with tube amps where the mix suffered quite a bit.


    But even if one was able to show axe fx as the culprit of "not cutting the mix", it would be unclear what exactly is to blame for this. It could have been the IR used in axe fx, not amp modelling at all (which I guess we could view as "more instrinsic" to the unit).


    In the case of the video above, the mix suffers in many ways.


    Considering this, I do not know how we'd able to narrow this down to "amp modelling".. or even an IR, for that matter, to any degree of certainty. It seems like such a massive leap. Tube amps or Kemper could have easily been used here without the result being too different. Even otherwise great sounding profiles could have been used with no drastic differences to the above results.


    But that's why tests are imo meaningful. Ideally one is able to narrow down causes by controlling a set of variables that otherwise allow for confirmation biases, selective interpretations of things.


    That's why Kemper included A/B function in the unit, too.

    The bonanza

    Edited 3 times, last by Dimi84 ().

  • How can you not hear how lifeless and artificial Fractal sounds, If you think I'm being harsh, just listen and hear the massive degradation that happened to Metallica's sound ever since they started using fractal . MY God how many fails did Metallica have with the AXE FX and some would still blame the sound Man or something else without acknowledging how inferior the amp modeling really is in Fractal Product.


    If you're into synthesis and new alternative sounds, you can consider Fractal Products, but if you want guitar tones including edge of breakup don't even dream of being able to get those sounds using any fractal products. this is very clear in the edge of breakup tones, that frankly suck, and it's very clear in almost every performance that Metallica had with fractal products. This is the reality that many modelers users don't seem to be able to see through, just too much hype and deceptive marketing gimmicks to sift through.


    Fractal tones never sit properly in a mix, by many pros accounts also.


    Dweezil Zappa and The Edge are pro users, and I like their tones a lot. They aren't really high gain alternative sound users and I don't think they'd use the Axe FX if it wasn't capable of good tones.


    Not saying it's the best device on earth, but it doesn't make sense to make claims that pros don't use it.

  • I think with a 4x12 grid, this fm3 is going to be very much win. DI's and stereo fx loops will be extra nice. My rig will be Line6 Hx Stomp, Fractal FM3, AND Empress Zoia. That's a mighty trio right there. Pro or not, you can watch me crush it, with or without my Kemper. I don't even need any of them. I would dismantle the entire building with a couple of Zooms and a stack of powered wedges.



    So Dean is out. Dimi says tone matching is a deal breaker if it's not included. Clearly I'm all about how I'm gonna make this thing slay. Anyone else?


    Is sound considered a carbon based lifeform? Not that it matters but thought I'd ask. Toodles :S

  • I am a nobody who plays against A3 a few times a month. It sounded great when I borrowed it for awhile. I was about to pull the trigger on one. Lots of endless tweaking and time to kill with it was the idea. Then I played a Kemper. Then borrowed said Kemper and went back to back with A3. Then put said Kemper in a band setting with A3. A3 had a rough night, guitarist using A3 said, "with more tweaking later, I am sure I can get it to sit better with the mix." I bought my Kemper the next day. A3 buddy is asking to borrow my Kemper this weekend.


    A3 is a fun tool that has some great sounds to be worked to get there. Many pros love it, many pros has some great techs to spend hours to secure their sounds. As a nobody, I don't have that luxury or time to kill with other life's demands since I am a nobody. Kemper has made me play more with less time tweaking and a going back to back with a few real amps now, I am pleased.


    I am a novice to technology, so maybe it's all beginners luck with the Kemper and I keep it quite simple at the moment, 3 main rigs for what I need it for in a band setting, been using a Line 6 HX Effects for now for my effects, but I have no urge for anything else amp wise anymore. I have been called a fanboy because I am biased they say. Oh well, I accept it. ?


    I have never played so much guitar since my teens since owning this toaster. But I say good for Axe FX and their continued changes and additions to their arsenal of products. I am sure all is moving forward to their last product. I have heard some great tones with their products. But as for the Kemper, I am very happy.

  • So Dean is out. Dimi says tone matching is a deal breaker if it's not included. Clearly I'm all about how I'm gonna make this thing slay. Anyone else?


    Is sound considered a carbon based lifeform? Not that it matters but thought I'd ask. Toodles :S

    I don't think lack of tone matching absolutely has to be a deal breaker -- but that function may be important for some. And as mentioned, there's some workarounds, even if not what I would ultimately prefer.


    Personally, I find the "Ares" amp modelling to be a meaningful step above what fractal had before. Even having that in the format of FM3 is tempting. I had been using Axe 3 extensively before for some projects, but the price had been too high for me to buy the unit.


    But considering the quality of the amp modelling on offer and portability.. I'm pretty close to joining the waiting list for FM3, especially considering I'll be travelling regularly soon enough. Even the addition of audio interface is a plus in my case. Just today I was playing around with a modded JCM, kemper and axe 3 (in this case without using tone matching) with some audio guys.


    If Ares in FM3 sounds and and feels like AX3, it's gonna be hard to turn down.

    The bonanza

  • How many times you need to test before it's confirmed that Fractal is not up to Par and that something is definitely wrong with their modeling Algorithms that doesn't allow it to fit properly in a mix.

    Except you're the only one saying this. You've been offered many occasions to pick out the Axe vs others, including in a mix. The point is if you find it so easy to detect because it doesn't sit in a mix or sound fake, the task should be simple. Without it, such hyperbole simply lacks credibility and seems to be founded on emotional distaste more than anything.


    Yes, Fractal can sound bad. Kemper can sound bad. Amps can sound bad. Hell, Metallica's live sound for a long, long time when they were using Mesa's wasn't great either IMO. Regardless, there are clips of current day Metallica which sound infinitely better than this. This one from earlier this year sounds like Metallica to me, and that was just at the top of a "Metallica live" YouTube search. Though, no device can save from their sloppy playing. When you skip around and they are in sync, the tone is exactly what you'd expect and doesn't have any trouble cutting through and sitting in the mix.

  • I have been called a fanboy because I am biased they say.

    Nothing wrong with being a fan of a product or preferring it over others. "Fanboy" only comes up when someone gets emotionally defensive or attacks over their gear as if they've been personally insulted.


    Kemper does things in a more streamlined fashion for many, especially if you already have a setup to profile. Axe provides ultimate versatility to sculpt a sound, but of course not everyone wants or needs that. I've always been a more "plug and play" type person but over the past few years I've grown to be a little more scrutinizing. Not always a good thing since I kind of miss the days when I would plug into anything, turn a few knobs and let my hands do the rest.


    We all have biases (and I'm certainly no exception), but some level of introspection at least helps us confront or test them in an attempt to be as logically sound and consistent as possible. Easier said than done, of course.

  • Another test and i dont think axe sit bad in a mix:

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    Dean_R please stop trolling .

    These are tools and you can create pretty good sounds on each of them.

    The Metallica example is jus bad mixing and recording (and playing) example.

    Unless you want to say that the detuned guitars is also an axe(or any other digital gear ) problem.

  • IMO Kemper sounded the worst in this comparison. Of course we can ask what profile was used, what settings compared to the others, etc. By no means does this mean the Kemper is bad or can't deliver as good or better with the right profile. Just goes to show that any 1 example can be good or bad and isn't indicative of these devices/plugins as a whole.

  • There is absolutely a market for a floor pedal that is all-in-one. I started with such a unit many years ago. What was really cool about it was that it was soooooo small and light.


    Small and light is a really big deal for lots of people.

  • I bought a Helix Hx Stomp because I loved the footprint. I sold it the next week because the models honestly sounded fizzy compared to the Kemper. Kemper, please make a small Fly Rig!

    I have kept mine for the moment because of its superior stomps. But, yes, do it...!

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

  • I hope Kemper stays out of that hornets nest. The current remote is more than capable considering you can add 4 extra momentary switches or 2 expression pedals to it. And with the new editor, having a small laptop or tablet on stage is all you'll need.


    The all-in-one floor market is already saturated, and as the FM3 thread over on TGP shows, you simple can't make everyone happy trying to meet

    both a price point and a form factor. Everyone clamoring for an FM3 will be selling them off and climbing all over themselves when the FM6 (or whatever) hits the market in 12-18 months.


    Look what's happening now with AX8s - which is a killer unit and was praised up and down as such when it came out. Now it's old news - yet Kemper's 7 year old design is still the king of the hill when it comes down to doing the one thing these units are suppose to do best - sound and feel like a real amp.


    Again, stay out of that pond IMO.

    "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

  • I hope Kemper stays out of that hornets nest.

    Hornets nest? They make a product that competes directly in that hornets nest already.

    The current remote is more than capable considering you can add 4 extra momentary switches or 2 expression pedals to it. And with the new editor, having a small laptop or tablet on stage is all you'll need.

    The remote is nice, but it still requires the head or rack, and together those are significantly more expensive than an all-in-one floor unit. Now you add in bringing a laptop (which even that suggestion many users here mock incessantly) vs having it all at your feet.

    The all-in-one floor market is already saturated, and as the FM3 thread over on TGP shows, you simple can't make everyone happy trying to meet both a price point and a form factor. Everyone clamoring for an FM3 will be selling them off and climbing all over themselves when the FM6 (or whatever) hits the market in 12-18 months.


    Look what's happening now with AX8s - which is a killer unit and was praised up and down as such when it came out. Now it's old news - yet Kemper's 7 year old design is still the king of the hill when it comes down to doing the one thing these units are suppose to do best - sound and feel like a real amp.

    We are guitar players and we tend to chase the dragon no matter what it is. How many amps & guitars have you owned? How many have you sold & flipped to try out something new? This preoccupation with Fractal having new hardware and people selling the old hardware (to willing buyers, mind you) is nothing new or controversial. Why do we care about another companies products resell value? If you're happy with it and it serves all your needs, there's no obligation to sell it or buy a new iteration. But maybe you want to try something new or cutting edge. Why do we talk about this like it's some unethical or unusual attitude?

    Again, stay out of that pond IMO.

    Kemper has an existing customer base, and that base has repeatedly made it known throughout the years that they would prefer to keep with Kemper but prefer a floor model. Many have purchased AX8's, Headrush's, BOSS GT-100's, GT-1000's, Helix's, even Mooer's to accommodate that desire. The idea that Kemper would bog themselves down by simply having another form factor with an established, willing, and even eager customer base is rather ridiculous.

  • I sure wouldn't be selling fm3 the moment a new unit came out, whether by fractal or others. I could sell if there's a new unit that did something better (or novel) enough so for me to think it's justified to buy it, considering my own life situation. Fm3 could be sold or not, in that case, but not for the reasons that seem to be up forth.

    The bonanza

  • Which is really no different compared to kemper and the market as a whole, what other companies release, not assuming adherence to one company either.


    There's new stuff coming out all the time. It's a possibility something is seen as "fancier" than kemper and axe fx soon enough.


    I don't think that'd be a good reason to jump on board. But there could be other reasons why it'd make sense to do so -- even including selling current devices. And maybe not so.

    The bonanza