Improvement/Quality of Direct Amp Profiles

  • Hey!


    I tested the Kemper exactly one year ago very intensively - my main goal was to replicate my amps with the "amp in the room experience" (powered Kemper with my existent guitar cabinets). For that, i used the Direct Amp profile guide and of course the Kemper DI box to make DA profiles of my beloved amps.


    The result was ... ok. They profiles were ok, but sadly not more then that. The sound was not similar and definitly not a 100% replication (especially in the low mids, and when playing palm mutes). I had a few talks through some FB groups and tried everything to solve it (tweaking the EQs and options), but nothing worked to satisfy me (i have very good localities to test my sounds)


    I'm still interested in going full digital and leave my heavy and big pedalboard at home - but the regular "amp on guitar cab, amp in the room rehearsal/gig" setting is also still required (not on the table for any discussions).

    SO! My question: Was anything done in the last year to the profiling algorithm? Is it better? Is it similar? Is anything planned to get "almost" the 100%? Or is it "done", almost anybody is happy and "that's it"? ... I'm not THAT picky when it comes to sound, but my results were really inferior compared to my amps - and that was not my goal ... :)

    Cheers :thumbup:
    Niklas

  • Ingolf and whereisthedug I take it you don't play metal?


    I'm using the Cililabs EVH 5153 Stealth EL34 profiles. They are the only ones (I have found!) that works ok at full rehearsal volume. I'm sure there are others. I just haven't found them.


    And by rehearsal volume I mean Powerhead into 4x12 at -6db or so without -12db setting.

    Kemper PowerRack | Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune

  • In my situation creating faithful DA profiles is just as much of an art as studio profiles.


    You can simply put a Kemper direct box in line and profile. With some amps this is enough though in my experience other amps require additional study to perfect.


    Many DI boxes have a transformer that can color the sound whether this is good or bad is up to the user.

  • To the OP: I've PM'd you with a few basic tips you could try out when profiling, post-profiling. Not going to discuss more in detail on the thread, as such topics have resulted to circular bonanza too often :)

  • Correct. I’m a mid gain classic rock kind of guy. Although I also love high gain Boogie and Dumble tones for solos but I’m not a metal and don’t really like most of the modern high gain sounds but that’s just personal taste.


    My point was really that CK has said he considers the job done so I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for any change in the profiling algorithm.

  • Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

    It has been well documented that the profiling algorithm was great from the get go, and despite a little flaw considering the low-end which was rectified a long time ago nothing has changed nor has there been a need to.


    Sad to hear that there is "no need to" - pretty disappointing, because you are saying (in other words) that i am wrong and they (the DAP's) sound identical. That is not the case. Like i said: They sound similar, but definitly not identical. The manual kind of promised me an identical profile, and that was not possibly. So ... that's it by Kemper? The software (profiling algo) is done? Forever? Literally "no need" to work on it? .. Tough cookie if i'm being honest.

    For the record: I tried the offical community here to get feedback: Direct Amp Profile is not hitting the 100% and Kemper DI profile sounds different when saved

    I hoped that Kemper worked on it, obviously not. That there is no plan not only to work on effects is hard ... I now that studio profiles are sounding good and very similar, but again - i need the classic amp-in-the-room setting. I returned the Kemper after my tests, so i'm not right now in the position to make other tests.

    @deadpan: Interesting to hear ... i used the official Kemper DI Box.
    @Wheresthedug: Me and my band mates were capable of telling the differences. I dont have a problem when "different" is better. But the Direct Amp Profiles were really inferior (just like i wrote one year ago, the tone had less "flesh", missing low-mids, ...)
    @Dimi84: Thanks for taking your time!

  • Well, I've seen your previous posts, and I've seen that the very knowledgeable DonPetersen got back to you, but obviously nothing came of it.

    I'm not saying you’re wrong, but clearly your assessment is wrong. (Note the difference).

    You should work with support (or should've worked with support in the first place, when your initial problem remained unsolved). ;)

  • Well, I've seen your previous posts, and I've seen that the very knowledgeable DonPetersen got back to you, but obviously nothing came of it.

    I'm not saying you’re wrong, but clearly your assessment is wrong. (Note the difference).

    You should work with support (or should've worked with support in the first place, when your initial problem remained unsolved). ;)

    Well, I can tell you now that I am getting great results on my bridge pickup but the profiled tone on the neck pickup is nowhere near the same. If I spend time trying to refine with the neck pickup selected, the bridge pickup sound is then nowhere near the same.

    So, I do think it would be great if there were two parts to the refining or profiling stage where you can select bridge with tone full up then select neck with tone rolled off so the profile can take into account the full frequency response needed to represent both pickups on my particular guitar (Les Paul).

    Absolutely loving the Stage though once all the teething problems are sorted.

  • First of all I understand what you're saying. The issue is that you are taking the reactance of the speakers in the original cabinet and the power amp that was used in profiling out of the equation when you use a DI profile. Whether you are creating a DI or a Merged profile, when you remove the tube power amp with the original cab out of the equation then of course you're going to get a difference. Kemper has known this for a long time and listened to some of us early adopters and provided a solution via a monitor out EQ.


    An excerpt from the Addendum manual, 1.5 so that should tell you how long there has been a fix for this.

    "Of course, we can never anticipate the exact sound of the speaker cabinet you use, so a little fine-tuning on the global Monitor Equalizer might be necessary to achieve the perfect “amp in the room” sound"


    When you adjust the monitor EQ out to match the sound of your profiled cab, it doesn't get any closer than that. Simply turning the cab off in the stack and pushing through a clean solid state amp into your 4x12 isn't good enough. You have to EQ it for it to be right. Kemper can't possibly know what cab or monitor situation you'll use.


    Not all FRFR solutions are equal either. Some give great results, some give bad results. But if you EQ the monitor/cab to suit your setup then you have the AMP IN THE ROOM sound and it will totally destroy any other digital solution out there. Too often this is missed by the new guys.


    Now how do you know what that sound is for a profile you didn't create? You don't so you have to let your ears guide you. But if it's a profile that you created, then you can nail YOUR TONEZ!

  • True, but irrelevant to the question.

    Also well documented is the number of metal bands using the Profiler sucessfully .

    My point being that it might not be the profile only, but the ability to play that profile correctly at live volume over a guitar cabinet.

    Kemper PowerRack | Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune

  • BTW, FWIW I've found a slight boost in the lows of .5 and then the mids a boost of about 1.5 and a boost in the highs of about .5 - 1.0 to be pretty much spot on for a V30 4x12. YMMV depending on the manufacter. I do play metal and hard rock so I understand somewhat of what you're saying. Look in the Rig Exchange for my Uberschall Merged profiles. Try those using your powerhead straight into your cab. I use this setup live all the time and the tone is spot on to what I actually get from my Uberschall with my 4x12. If you find that you're missing something with your cab then EQ the output to adjust to taste. Use your ears.

    My point being that it might not be the profile only, but the ability to play that profile correctly at live volume over a guitar cabinet.

  • Thanks for your feedback, glad to hear something.

    Quote

    Whether you are creating a DI or a Merged profile, when you remove the tube power amp with the original cab out of the equation then of course you're going to get a difference.

    I thought (and i think the manual also stated it) that the Direct Amp Profile recreates "everything" the amp "outputs". With this in mind, the cab should respond like i'm connecting an amp to it. To EQ the profile to get an identical result compared to the amp would mean, that i'm very limited to one specific cab, because i would EQ the profile to match my cab - that EQ could act differently when hooked up to other cabs. Of course different cabs are sounding different, but it sounds that profiles are reacting differently to guitar cabs. But yes, good to know. I tried to EQ but nothing really hit my reference amp. But maybe i need another round to try more a harder dialed in EQ.

    Quote

    Well, I can tell you now that I am getting great results on my bridge pickup but the profiled tone on the neck pickup is nowhere near the same. If I spend time trying to refine with the neck pickup selected, the bridge pickup sound is then nowhere near the same.

    Super good point, i had the same. The profile "worked" with the bridge PU on my SG Standard, but on the neck PU, the profile was really ... nothing like my amp. So, refining the profile on different pickups is maybe a good step in the right direction. If i have the possibility to try one of the KPA's again, i'll try it out. Good point.

    Quote

    Well, I've seen your previous posts, and I've seen that the very knowledgeable DonPetersen got back to you, but obviously nothing came of it.

    Yeah, that's right - kind of forgot to get back to the forum to say that i tried it (and it didn't work out) - sorry for my missing answer, that's on me! I was really in a bad mood - i was going to to spent nearly 2.5k in new equipment to go full digital, and it didn't work out how i hoped ... so yeah ..

    Quote

    I'm not saying you’re wrong, but clearly your assessment is wrong. (Note the difference).

    You should work with support (or should've worked with support in the first place, when your initial problem remained unsolved).

    I tried everything the community suggested at the time - and nothing worked out how i hoped.
    So may standpoint was to hope that some day Kemper will hit the 100% in the profiling process.
    To hear that this is maybe not happening because the profiling process is "done" is really hard to swallow.
    I can't comment how the new tips are working out (if i have the possibility to try it out another time i would do it), but again (as a software developer by myself btw) to say that a specific software part is "done" and not requires any (!) additional work or future optimization is super hard to get and irritating. We'll see what the future brings.

    Thanks for all the input.
    Niklas

  • BTW, FWIW I've found a slight boost in the lows of .5 and then the mids a boost of about 1.5 and a boost in the highs of about .5 - 1.0 to be pretty much spot on for a V30 4x12. YMMV depending on the manufacter. I do play metal and hard rock so I understand somewhat of what you're saying. Look in the Rig Exchange for my Uberschall Merged profiles. Try those using your powerhead straight into your cab. I use this setup live all the time and the tone is spot on to what I actually get from my Uberschall with my 4x12. If you find that you're missing something with your cab then EQ the output to adjust to taste. Use your ears.

    So you are playing through you amp's poweramp and not the digital poweramp of the Kemper?
    I always heard not to do this, because "the poweramp colors the tone and the digital poweramp recreates a more neutral sound".

    Greetings,
    Niklas

  • MrPond where did you read that?


    BulldogXTRM thanks I'll try

    Kemper PowerRack | Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune

  • Something to consider, Niklas:


    Sharing clips might help in that there may be clues in the difference/s between the source and Profiled result as to what's going on. I re-read your previous two threads on the matter and no clips were offered, hence this suggestion.


    You'd have to Profile again to be 100% certain your amp settings are identical for both clips and obviously to be able to use the KPA's comparison feature; simply record the clips whilst in this mode.


    Welcome back, mate. :)