My findings using the KPA as a DI solution

  • Crap. Just found out that while adding a cabinet after-the-fact sounds great going to the board, the cab still "colors" the direct sound (also an issue mentioned before) which screws up the direct-to-amp tone. (sigh) :thumbdown:

    Yes, that is why many users are looking forward to that "total cab bypass". I talked to CK about this and he is taking this very serious and he is already investigating how to make this better.

  • I disagree. :D


    I don't think that's how CK meant for the refining process to work or the manual would say "noodle around for 30 minutes". You shouldn't have to refine for a half hour to get great results. Such extensive refining isn't necessary when I use mic'd cab tones...and I'm totally happy with the results. :S


    The manual is a guideline coupled with some marketing to make it all sound easy and not put people off. You can follow it blindly or try out my suggestion based on my experience in the real world and see what happens. You've nothing to lose but twenty minutes of time that I'd hope you'd spend noodling around with your guitar anyway given the chance.

  • We should not forget that here we are stretching quite a bit the original purpose of the Profiling process, I've tried it with power amp and cab and was sounding like an amp...to me...but loosing all the flexibility and ease of being FRFR. I think that by now my ears are used to that paradigm and I would not go back hauling a 4x12 around even if somebody would do it for me (and it is not the case). But that is just me....


    Excellent points. :thumbsup:


    But each solution creates it's own new problem (which I'm trying to solve). 8|


    If I use the KPA as primarily an FRFR solution, I have a BIG compromise on the quality of stage monitoring which sounds nowhere near as nice as my real amps onstage. I've already gone through two FRFR monitors (A JBL EON G2 which sucked and an EV Sx250 which was better). But I see this route as a rabbit-hole of compromise, purchases and wasted money trying to find a workable solution.


    If I use the KPA as a DI solution, the quality of my stage monitoring improves dramatically (and will be better once the speaker profile can be 100% removed from the monitor output) AND I get a great sound to the board. So even though it's "stretching" it's intended purpose it has potentially greater payoffs for me. YMMV.


    I sure do hear ya on the lugging around the 4X12. :S But I gotta either lug around an FRFR stage monitor or a 2X12 cabinet anyway so the question for me is, "Which one inspires me onstage like my amps do?".

  • The JBL sucks and that EV is not far away, they are DJ boxes. If you get the chance try an RCF NX 12, my old QSC K10 sounds like a toy in comparison.

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • If you get the chance try an RCF NX 12, my old QSC K10 sounds like a toy in comparison.


    Yeah...I've been reading that in various forums...it sure is one hell of an expensive solution though.


    I would HAVE to get it from somewhere I could return it if I didn't like it. Thanks for the input. :)


    Out of curiosity, what are the smallest/largest gigs you've used it on? What amps were you using onstage before having that setup?

  • Everything from 50 seater club to 10.000 people open air festivals. I had modeling solution for the smallest stuff and an H&K Triamp plus rack for the bigger ones. In the 80-90s I was hauling a rack stereo setup with 2 full stacks in stereo :wacko:;(

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • Everything from 50 seater club to 10.000 people open air festivals. I had modeling solution for the smallest stuff and an H&K Triamp plus rack for the bigger ones. In the 80-90s I was hauling a rack stereo setup with 2 full stacks in stereo :wacko:;(


    Right on! I didn't realize the RCF NX 12 was so versatile...50-10,000 works for me. ;) Apparently worth the expense then. :S


    Man..that's some system you had back in the 80-90s! :thumbup: I sure don't envy having to lugg that stuff around tho...

  • Right on! I didn't realize the RCF NX 12 was so versatile. Apparently worth the expense then. :S


    Man..that's some system you had! :thumbup: I sure don't envy having to lugg that stuff around tho...

    Well, on big stages you depend from the monitoring anyway, even a full stack is not enough to carry the all stage and is going to be mic'd up 100% of the time. The RCF is enough to carry a mid sized room (100-200 seater) if you really have to, but by sure it covers your position on any stage, with the plus that what you hear is what the audience is hearing (actually quite better, IMHO, unless the club have really some top PA....quite unlikely these days..).
    Back at the time we had full service with roadies to load and unload the flight cases, but the setup was up to us....I was still young enough for it 8)

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff



  • Despite the fact, that we are working on new solutions for the direct-to-cabinet, everybody should be aware that what you hear through the regular stage monitors is equivalent to the sound that is presented to the public. If you mind your audience you should work on that sound. If your sound is shit on the stage monitors, while the singer, bass and keyboards sound good, there is definetely something wrong.


    A cab sound on stage might sound better and more familiar to you, but has nothing to do with what you present to the public. This is why more and more pro's go for regular stage or in-ear monitoring, not just to listen to themselves, but to control the real sound. How can you control your playing and dynamics, when you hear a different sound than what is finally in the mix?

  • Despite the fact, that we are working on new solutions for the direct-to-cabinet, everybody should be aware that what you hear through the regular stage monitors is equivalent to the sound that is presented to the public. If you mind your audience you should work on that sound. If your sound is shit on the stage monitors, while the singer, bass and keyboards sound good, there is definetely something wrong.


    A cab sound on stage might sound better and more familiar to you, but has nothing to do with what you present to the public. This is why more and more pro's go for regular stage or in-ear monitoring, not just to listen to themselves, but to control the real sound. How can you control your playing and dynamics, when you hear a different sound than what is finally in the mix?


    I would add one small clarification regarding monitors being reliable as "What's being presented to to the public"... if the front of house is "flat" and the stage monitors are relatively "flat" the situations is, as you suggest, quite a good way to go.


    The caveat is a knowlege that a junk monitor cab which is mauled by over eq to maximize vocal volume and not fidelity? Not the same.


    However, it is a paradygm to shoot for. On that I agree with CK completely.


    I have been lucky' to a large degree. I have played the big stages and recorded in very good studios as a player with their career on the line. I have also been a Front of House engineer for many "household" names. Mic'ed is what really matters and listening to myself in the context of the final mix is where I want to be. I never recorded one lick of solo work without sitting in the control room listening exclusively to the final mix speakers. If you do that enough you realize that's where you want to sit unless you like being disappointed with the final mix. IOW, what you experience in you face matters a great deal more than what is happening behind you.


    The KPA can certainly be refined. However, what it does very well should not be tossed overboard to satisfy a user base at the expense of what it has going for it already. That is to say, in changing how the cab is separated out of a rig, please don't let how the KPA sounds now be compromised. I'm extremely picky about my sound. I can assure folks the KPA directly into a good PA and monitors system is truly good, in fact, superb.


    Keep the KPA honest in it's ability to be a tool for direct input. I'll dial it in from there or choose another appropriate profile to use. ;) Making it more versatile is great, but let's not lose what it alredy does so well.


    In my experience, a stage monitor with a 10 inch woofer or less will disappoint in a room of any size which will accomodate an audience. A 10 inch or less woofer is more suited to nearfield use, IOW in your line of sight and no more than three feet away at the most. They just don't throw a coherant fidelity at distance further than that... not full range fidelity. A good quality 12 with a coaxial compression driver is much better suited.


    BTW, thanks very much for a truly usable tool.