Charging for profiles?

Let me float this idea out there for a sec, and I can't even imagine I'm saying it BUT:

Imagine that you're Bob Rock, John Cuniberti, Andy Sneap, or any other big name legend with a mountain of gear and a golden ear. Said producer might be interested in profiling his amps, mics, mic pre's 'n cabs, mix-ready and platinum-mix profiled but it would have to be worth his while to do so. Said producer comes out with a Redwirez-type of bundle with literally hundreds of profiles, all impeccably cataloged, documented and cross-referenced. A huge, huge labor of love which could (to some small extent) cannibalize his reamping business, which brings in a nice bit of money on the side. Said bundle therefore comes with its own framed signed certificate, private tech support forum and video, and sells for $500. Kemper even releases "Producer Pak" versions of the KPA where you can get te same bundle for an extra $250 if you buy it with the amp.

Nobody has to buy it of course, but anyone could pirate it. And pirated it would be. Rapidly.

Now imagine that Kemper comes out with a backwards-compatibile Rev 2.0 profile format that supports amp-locking; i.e., profiles could be tied to the serial number of your amp and not run anywhere else. When you sold your amp the Producer Pak would go with it (increasing the value of the amp) or perhaps the Producer Pak could be de-registered and then re-sold to somebody else, who could then re-register it in his or her name. If this sounds kinda like what Line 6 did with its Model Packs, or Waves did with its iLok plugs, then you're right. That's the model.

Now, without copy protection, said Big Name Producers would simply have no interest in touching this idea with a ten-foot pole. And yet, if implemented the rest of the world would still keep spinning, and people could keep uploading and downloading free profiles as before. In fact, in a pinch, people could even use a KPA to profile another KPA's Producer Pack if they wanted to be jerks about it - but lacking the signature, these wouldn't display as 'official' and would therefore have no resale value.

Haters gonna hate - but would this really be such a bad idea? Maybe I need more coffee, but my Defective By Design / Electronic Frontier Foundation genes seem to be asleep today.

-djh

I really feel it's Kemper's responsibility to put out more profiles. We are paying a great deal to use their product. It would be a great investment for them to pay some professionals a few thousand dollars to create a more massive profile catalogue and therefore, keeping potential hacks from making money off of their product and customers by selling profiles.

Short of that, yes, I will end up buying professional profiles only because I want to unlock the full potential of this unit.

Quote from dhodgson

Let me float this idea out there for a sec, and I can't even imagine I'm saying it BUT:

Imagine that you're Bob Rock, John Cuniberti, Andy Sneap, or any other big name legend with a mountain of gear and a golden ear. Said producer might be interested in profiling his amps, mics, mic pre's 'n cabs, mix-ready and platinum-mix profiled but it would have to be worth his while to do so. Said producer comes out with a Redwirez-type of bundle with literally hundreds of profiles, all impeccably cataloged, documented and cross-referenced. A huge, huge labor of love which could (to some small extent) cannibalize his reamping business, which brings in a nice bit of money on the side. Said bundle therefore comes with its own framed signed certificate, private tech support forum and video, and sells for $500. Kemper even releases "Producer Pak" versions of the KPA where you can get te same bundle for an extra $250 if you buy it with the amp.

Nobody has to buy it of course, but anyone could pirate it. And pirated it would be. Rapidly.

Now imagine that Kemper comes out with a backwards-compatibile Rev 2.0 profile format that supports amp-locking; i.e., profiles could be tied to the serial number of your amp and not run anywhere else. When you sold your amp the Producer Pak would go with it (increasing the value of the amp) or perhaps the Producer Pak could be de-registered and then re-sold to somebody else, who could then re-register it in his or her name. If this sounds kinda like what Line 6 did with its Model Packs, or Waves did with its iLok plugs, then you're right. That's the model.

Now, without copy protection, said Big Name Producers would simply have no interest in touching this idea with a ten-foot pole. And yet, if implemented the rest of the world would still keep spinning, and people could keep uploading and downloading free profiles as before. In fact, in a pinch, people could even use a KPA to profile another KPA's Producer Pack if they wanted to be jerks about it - but lacking the signature, these wouldn't display as 'official' and would therefore have no resale value.

Haters gonna hate - but would this really be such a bad idea? Maybe I need more coffee, but my Defective By Design / Electronic Frontier Foundation genes seem to be asleep today.

-djh

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Seems like a great idea to me and could get studios to model their amazing amps that are just sitting around. I think we will always have a community of people who give away their profiles for free and we can add this new "commercial" sector too. Or we could have like an apps store where anyone can sell their profile for like .99 and the professional profiles could be maybe a couple bucks. Lots of different paradigms out there that can coexist together.

wow, we are all getting lively

personally if someone is prepared to go the extra mile to get the best equipment in the best environment to produce the best samples of iconic amps, then i have no problem with them asking for a realistic amount for me to use those, i guess in the current workflow, anyone could fiddle with those and then post them for everyone to have free, down to ethics and values, but all of this would be sorted by simple market forces and whether, and how much, people were prepared to pay

some of you kemper profiling heroes have given me profiles that have lit up my guitar playing life, the hardware would be just that without the profiled soul some of you guys are producing, and clearly doing it with passion, care and huge effort, so I for one am happy to reward that effort and commitment if asked, the only niggle would be the thought of creating some sort of try/hear before you buy place, i'm sure we've all been slaving away trying to rationalise the flow of new stuff to ensure we keep a workable amount of profiles on the machine

anyway, just my thoughts

cheers all

I would add that there is one critical factor that often enters into the picture: To a certain degree, a great profile is the result of blind luck - sometimes a mediocre amp coupled with a cheap mike produces stellar results, and sometimes sadly the opposite is true (I have observed this personally). The Profiling process is still a mystery as to achieving consistently great results, no?

Quote from steeldragon72

I really feel it's Kemper's responsibility to put out more profiles. We are paying a great deal to use their product. It would be a great investment for them to pay some professionals a few thousand dollars to create a more massive profile catalogue and therefore, keeping potential hacks from making money off of their product and customers by selling profiles.

Short of that, yes, I will end up buying professional profiles only because I want to unlock the full potential of this unit.

The preset Profiles are as professional as it gets.

All these amps were Profiled in Alan Littens Nashville studio, over 100 Profiles.

[Blocked Image: http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5315/alanlittenandsomekemper.jpg]

Quote from Radley

The Profiling process is still a mystery as to achieving consistently great results, no?

I agree.

I think some of the mystery has been discovered.
Has to be something to do with 2 mics into a mixer/pre-amps, what's done in that mixer before it hits the KPA is part of the mystery, and Tills 'nailed' it.

You are not alone Peter.
Many of the clean/crunch profiles sound great. But for higher gain stuff I have to thank TonyMcKenzie (AKA Profiler) and Milla (slo100 lead profile from Axe Fx II).
But the best part of the story is that here we don't need a further firmware update to get new sounds. We got 20-30-50 new profiles a week and guys, that's freakin'amazing.
I'm discovering amps that I never heard in my whole lifetime!
In the end I don't care that much if we get more standard profiles, since this community satisfies any gear acquisition syndrome about amps, while guitars are a different story

I'd pay for the right profile and wouldn't for one which doesn't interest me. So much of the true appropriate use of a profile depends on the context of the overall production and arrangement in which it will be be placed. Sometime the not so stellar on it's own tone is right for the total production.

I can't truly share any wisdom on the business viability of a prospectus such as you suggest. That's where the gamble comes into focus, including the same iffy situation a record deal includes. The viability of a business plan depends on the final product and less so the circumstances the hit or flop recording was done under.

Better to bite the bullet and do a bang up job on a single amp... establish the clear superiority of your premise and execution ability. A smoking "demo" for lack of a better description. Then the resonse will let you know if there's some traction in your idea.

Quote from 1fastdog

Better to bite the bullet and do a bang up job on a single amp... establish the clear superiority of your premise and execution ability. A smoking "demo" for lack of a better description. Then the response will let you know if there's some traction in your idea.

True.
Pete (okstrat), it a killer guitarist who's uploaded some 'special' Profiles with 'live' sound clips as well as this video of his band...in other words, he's proved himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crrWehpT9jM&feature=youtu.be

paying for quality packs

I've posted a contribution to the thread started by Andy, and44, to do with the second amazing pack of amps and cabs that he has produced.

I wanted to use it as an opportunity to continue the discussion about remunerating these guys. Andy, and Mats, come to mind as 2 guys who have gone massively beyond what might be expected to give us some amazing sounds, and frankly the chance to play amps which we can only dream of, and i for one feel we should make it acceptable for them to charge a reasonable amount for us to access their work, since it must cost them time and money.

Who knows if we help them help us, we could get even more. I know there are some other pioneers of profiling, Tills being one that comes to mind, so i mention this for all of you that spend extra time and effort making my guitar playing even more joyous

I know this is contentious, but I don't think its wrong , this isn't about the profiling the odd amp we have at home, this is about guys producing superbly recorded collections, and while we may end up just doing the donation thing, thats fine, but maybe we need to help formalise it a bit more, just a thought

I throw it open to the forum, what do you think guys?

Already expressed my opinion in the other thread. Not sure why we we have to discuss the same in three different threads!!??

sorry, lost track of all the threads, theres so many, have added my comments now to what may have been the original one

the consensus anyway seems to be donations rather than sale, so happy to do that, just wanted these guys to get a fair shake

complicated things these forums

Quote from andrewwarne

sorry, lost track of all the threads, theres so many, have added my comments now to what may have been the original one

the consensus anyway seems to be donations rather than sale, so happy to do that, just wanted these guys to get a fair shake

complicated things these forums

Agreed! And look at Andy's threads about his two profiling sessions and check out how many people said that they donated. I would guess and hope that this means he's got a fair share.
Plus I agree with all others that charging for profiles somehow would go against the basic principle of this open community and the idea of sharing.

Cheers,
Markus

I think i'll step in here before things get outta hand, and I dont want that to happen.

Im a Pro musican and therfore have access to a lot of things perhaps others dont. - My love for all things being good has turned out well in the KPA community, sharing what is mine and giving to those that dont... and this I certainly want to continue. Ive not a problem carrying on the way it is now.

On the negative side. - and I wont lie, it does cost me, and the return I get by a (thankfull) donation from you amazing guys sadly doesnt cover the cost in any way. - but for me its more a token of appreciation, and for that I have upmost respect to you. Honestly..and I certainly dont want them to stop : )

..SO why do I do it then? - well, I do it becasue of my reasons above. (the love) we are all here becasue we share one main thing..we are all guitar players sharing the same platform. - I know whats its like to want something you cant afford, and to admire/envy/hate those that do. and untill now, this was not possible. - well now it is thanks to Kemper the company, I can share my amps, effects, so others can also enjoy. - the world is too small and too short for selfishness, musicans are a tight group, "Signature sound" is one thing, but my fingers are my own, and yours are yours.. what I get here will differ from what you will get too. so Im not precious or upset in any way, just as long as you help me.. by offering good feedback.

The money donated to me will help to be used to hire anything new and rare that I dont own. - im still doing what Im doing, and enjoying bringing you the stuff I do.. our partnership will work if your appreciation continues and you all have done.. so im blessed with thanks to you all for that.. really! . and that is all I ask. - the donations are a bonus, but not a "must"

So far, the comments have been joyfull to read, and wants me to do more and more.. and each time get better at my craft. - I want the KPA to outgrow its rivals, and if I can play a small part in that.. then good!

And yes, ive some majour things going on KPA related that is going to take me months of planning and doing. (more on that to come)
So yeah.. just give me your bank account numbers and I'll be on my way.. (lol)

Seriouly, as a end note.. - lets just carry on the way we are.
Dontate if you have some to give, if not then enjoy it and maybe next time : )
Not sure what else to say. so i'll end it here.
A

fair enough Andy, laudable and generous sentiments, and your work is gratefully received believe me

i hope when your next efforts are unveiled that the community donations can help more with covering some of the costs, cos as some chap once said, money can't buy me love, but it can be very helpful with many other things!

Quote from andrewwarne

fair enough Andy, laudable and generous sentiments, and your work is gratefully received believe me

i hope when your next efforts are unveiled that the community donations can help more with covering some of the costs, cos as some chap once said, money can't buy me love, but it can be very helpful with many other things!

+1000
Couldn't have said it better, and yes, Andy, you are certainly "paying it forward", to the guitar community, Kudos brother!!!

Andy, I hope that more contribute to assist you in your Kemper exploits. We're all benefiting greatly from your work. Many thanks again!