Other gear - Windows 10 thread

  • I performed the update to W10 on an old Dell from the link provided in the forum... worked like a charm! Was surprised it would work as I had tried to update before from W7 pro without any luck... just figured it was too old. Many thanks for the link!

  • I upgraded from Win 7 to Win 10 on Saturday. It failed two times. The solution was to disconnect from the internet when the installation routine started to look for updates.

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

  • Technology moves on. I've been on Win 10 since the beginning and my team manages a business full of Win 10 very successfully.

    If you're upgrading a machine fron Win 7 to the latest release of 10 then there are likely to be hardware incompatibilities. These aren't designed to force you to upgrade in some evil plot, they're a side- effect of software taking advantage of technology and eventually leaving some hardware behind.

  • I've typically used Microsoft Security Essentials, as many antivirus companies are as sketchy as the viruses they protect against. Recently I've been getting failures on definition updates. MSE is Windows 7 only, and my guess is that they're reducing the number of servers that handle these connections, but that's just a guess. In any event, it's an indication that I've ridden this pony about as far as it'll go before things start getting weird.


    So, I've been slowly migrating some non-critical boxes from 7 to 10 the past few months. Older 32 bit laptops that ran fine with 7 are significantly slower with 10. That may be the 4 gig memory cap in a 32 bit OS, hard to say for sure. The 64 bit laptop for my keyboard station running Cubase 10 seems to work fine. I'm still reluctant to change my studio or dev boxes as I depend on these, and there's always some bit of hardware or software you depend on that doesn't play nice in the new world. Since 10 doesn't do anything for me that 7 didn't do, I have little enthusiasm for fighting that battle before I have to. In fact, I'm only doing these upgrades at all because ultimately, I just don't have a choice. There is absolutely zero value to me in moving to 10, but I have to do it anyway.


    My livelihood has been dependent on Microsoft operating systems and dev tools since DOS 3.1, so I'm used to change and am far from a technology Luddite. In fact, I've typically been excited about each new release since, like music gear, it's a new toy to play with. Some versions of Windows I've loved, some I haven't been terribly impressed with (e.g. Vista was a bit of a clumsy transition). Windows 10 is the first version that I actively, passionately hate, and that's because it's a paradigm shift that's not at all in favor of the paying public.


    Microsoft doesn't pay for my computers or software. I do. But with the advent of 10, I have now lost control of the systems that I (allegedly) own. There are tricks to disable automatic updates. And they work. Until they don't. And even the briefest foray into the "privacy" settings reveals an avalanche of phone home activities that are on by default, coupled with the message that there's some stuff you simply can't turn off. MS, not I, now controls the vertical and the horizontal (for all you Outer Limits fans). On a computer that I paid for.


    In addition to the privacy implications and the fact that MS can now install updates at will (and that will become even more relevant in the future), there's another thing that the general public won't see coming until it's too late. From the earliest days of Bill Gates' reign, he complained about piracy and wanted to move to Software as a Service (SAAS) since it's easier to prevent theft that way. MS has always charged for Windows (and it's been a significant profit center), but suddenly, with the advent of the always-connected Windows 10, they decided to give it away for free. Am I really to believe that MS has now become a philanthropic non-profit organization?


    The simple fact of the matter is that once the world has converted to 10 and there's no going back, and they can push updates at will without your consent (I'm sure it'll be in the 1000 page terms of service that we never read), there's nothing to stop them from flipping a few switches and starting a new subscription service for Windows. Instead of purchasing an OS license as we have in the past, Microsoft will now be a monthly utility bill, an added expense that you simply have to live with. Your cost of living / doing business will go up whether your income does or not. And they can raise prices whenever they want. After all, what are you going to do about it?


    When Adobe was in transition and introducing their Creative Cloud (CC) platform I was active on the forums and expressed concern that perpetual licenses (the ones where you "buy" the software instead of renting it every month) would go away. Adobe employees swore up and down that would never happen. That's exactly what happened.


    However, that's not the most chilling thing about their change. I love subscription services and paid for Microsoft's MSDN for many years. At the end of the year if you didn't renew, you still owned the licenses you got during that period. With Adobe CC, as soon as you stop paying, every Adobe app is bricked. You can no longer work on any of your projects. Their apps phone home (sound familiar?) and if you're not paying rent, they simply won't run. So, either pay the Adobe Tax for the rest of your life, or completely lose the software, no matter how long you've been paying.


    Now imagine this happening with your computer's operating system. I promise you, the only reason MS hasn't already flipped the SAAS switch for Windows is the fear of a massive beat down by federal regulators. They're a for-profit company that's always charged for Windows. To think they suddenly no longer want to make money off of it is naive. Most likely the SAAS change will come incrementally, to raise fewer flags. First splashy new features (if there are any left) will only be available by subscription, and it will creep from there. And if you depend on Windows, there's not a thing you can do about it.


    Lest you think that I just bought a fresh, new tinfoil hat, I would offer that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Adobe got away with their forced conversion to the Adobe Tax because they hold the creative community at gunpoint. But they got away with it nonetheless. More and more software companies are moving to SAAS, and some have tried doing way with perpetual licenses to varying degrees of success, mostly based on whether or not people had options. The software world really wants to move to the Monthly Tax model, and they will if they can. And if you think Adobe had people by the short and curlies, consider Windows.


    And yes, I do realize that I'm just barking at the moon. There's absolutely nothing I can do to avoid this future short of installing a different operating system. And if Microsoft gets away with it and sets the precedent, you can be sure that Apple won't be far behind. Perhaps it's time to look at Linux. Oh, wait. The Editor won't run on Linux. Like most everything else in the world.


    So, I've delayed my move from Windows 7 for as long as possible because I simply don't want to hand over the keys to my computer to someone else. Call me old fashioned, call me a control freak, but this ain't your grandfather's Windows update. I suppose my protest is little more than holding up the social finger to Microsoft, but if I'm going to be held at gunpoint, I'm not going quietly.

  • Hey there,

    many stated that Windows 7 would come for free and we could just include it at no cost and say it is unsupported. In the current state if you try to load the DLL on Windows 7 you instantly get an error because unknown Windows 8 things are static linked. We could find a way to fix it (probably with other side effects) but finishing things was a higher priority :) Apart from that, official support for Windows 7 ends soon, so it is likely that this is not going to be a feature for the release..

  • with the advent of the always-connected Windows 10, they decided to give it away for free.

    I won't go into every detail of your post (some I agree, some I disagree) ... but regarding the above statement: This isn't true. Windows 10 still costs money. Buy a new Windows laptop/computer/tablet and be sure that the manufacturer will have paid an OEM price ... and you pay for getting the product being equipped with Windows 10. My rough guess would be around 32 billion US$ revenue from Windows 10 per year (about 25% of their revenue). So it's far from free. ;)

  • I won't go into every detail of your post (some I agree, some I disagree) ... but regarding the above statement: This isn't true. Windows 10 still costs money. Buy a new Windows laptop/computer/tablet and be sure that the manufacturer will have paid an OEM price ... and you pay for getting the product being equipped with Windows 10. My rough guess would be around 32 billion US$ revenue from Windows 10 per year (about 25% of their revenue). So it's far from free. ;)

    You're right, of course. My thinking was influenced by the long term giveaway program when they were first promoting it, but I would imagine OEMs have always accounted for far more revenue than individuals buying an upgrade.

    In the current state if you try to load the DLL on Windows 7 you instantly get an error because unknown Windows 8 things are static linked.

    Ah, the joys of DLL Hell. I think dynamic link libraries are probably responsible for more grief than all other Windows issues combined over the years. When I was writing air traffic control software (back in the C++ / MFC days), we used to statically link all libs to try to minimize that hassle as much as possible. I'd gladly buy more disk space to get rid of dlls, but that's not going to happen without a time machine or some dimensional shifting to a more reasonable universe. Oh, well...


    Great work on the editor, man. I'm sure you guys have been burning the midnight oil for quite some time.

  • I agree with some of the points. I certainly have experienced the "bait and switch" from Microsoft where they include features in a 365 license only to strip them out into a separate and more expensive subscription.


    It boils down to who you trust. In my case I trust them way more as as company than Google, Apple, or Samsung.

  • This is a reply from the Rig Manager 3.0 Beta Release Discussion Thread - I'm putting it here in the 10 thread to keep from distracting from the RM discussion, but I thought it might be encouraging to 7 users considering making the move to 10 with their current hardware.

    There are lots of Win 7 era machines that just don't run Windows 10 properly. If you're going to persist with it I recommend ensuring you have at least 8GB of RAM. I've got an old laptop from around 2008 that's been Win 10 for years and no issues. On the other hand we have older graphics workstations at work that just won't cope with it, even though they've got decent specs.

    At the shallow end of the pool, I've just upgraded a handful of 32 bit desktops and laptops from 7 to 10. 32 bit architecture limits max memory to 4GB (3, really), and while 2Ghz processors, none of them are exactly blazing. Performance is a bit slower since 10, but that's an old story with any new operating system. That said, the desktop and three laptops all took the upgrade and are functioning normally as best I can tell thus far.


    I've also upgraded a desktop and laptop that were both 64 bit, with 24GB of memory and decent CPUs. Cubase is running on the laptop, and no perceived hit in performance on either of these.


    All upgrades have been in place, i.e. running the install from within Windows 7 as an upgrade and keeping my programs rather than a clean install from a DVD.


    Obviously there's always a chance of some bit of hardware or software not playing nice, but in general it seems to be handling these older boxes okay. Hope this is helpful to any of you doing your own upgrades.

  • My oldest one is a DV7 laptop from HP. The model I got was on the cusp of the introduction of 64 bit. It came built with 32 bit, but had the capability to do 64.

    I took the whole thing apart, cleaned all of the fan and air paths, replaced the thermal compound, replaced the hard drive with an SSD, upgraded to 8GB RAM, and built it with Win 10 Pro 64 bit. It was a surprisingly capable machine. I ran my Studio One DAW on that until last year when I got a new workstation.

  • I've been trying for days to install on 2 different Windows 10 laptops (updated from 7). Each and every time I get: "There is a problem with this Installer package. A DLL required for this install to complete could not be run. Contact your support personnel or package vendor"...….I have tried every suggestion/workaround on the internet.

  • It took me 2 days to instal Windows 10 as it kept installing until around 85-90% then crashing. It turned out to be the network wifi drivers. I uninstalled them and it finally worked.

    Hope this helps someone.

  • I've been trying for days to install on 2 different Windows 10 laptops (updated from 7). Each and every time I get: "There is a problem with this Installer package. A DLL required for this install to complete could not be run. Contact your support personnel or package vendor"...….I have tried every suggestion/workaround on the internet.

    That sounds a lot like the problem some folks were having installing RM on Windows 8, where the source of the problem was the state of the OS before beginning the install process. So, the first thing I'd try (painful though it may be) is to run Windows Update on your 7 install and make sure it's 100% up to date, do the requisite reboots, then try again.


    Of the boxes I've upgraded thus far, one laptop crashed in the middle with an obscure error message. I had been selecting "keep everything," i.e. installed apps and files, so I decided to try keep nothing and the second time around it worked without issue. Of course, I'll have to reinstall apps on that box, but at least it's now running 10.

    It took me 2 days to instal Windows 10 as it kept installing until around 85-90% then crashing. It turned out to be the network wifi drivers. I uninstalled them and it finally worked.

    Hope this helps someone.

    The weirdest I've encountered thus far was an HP box that simply wouldn't boot from the DVD. I'd already formatted the hard drive during the first installation attempt, so obviously there was no OS to boot from. Figured it out today when I happened to notice that the boot menu as well as the post message to select a boot option both referred to the cd-rom, not the dvd drive. I looked at the tray and it was in fact a dvd (got the box from a friend).


    It also had the option to boot from usb, so I went that path and got it installed. Once 10 was running, I stuck the Windows 10 dvd back into the drive and it read it just fine. So, there was obviously some sort of driver voodoo that had hidden drivers or something that would make it known as a dvd drive at boot time. Certainly not the weirdest thing I've ever seen.


    That honor would go to Finally:

    It came built with 32 bit, but had the capability to do 64.

    I thought all architecture was either 32 or 64 bit, base on cpu, motherboard, etc. Never heard of such a thing. Wow, that's gotta be some serious hardware voodoo. Always something new to learn!