Not getting good results profiling :(

  • Hi all


    I had a crack at profiling my Marshall Jubilee 2558 and was a bit disappointed with the results.


    I used SM57s and the resulting profile was very dull, compressed and lifeless. What am I doing wrong? Mike positioning?


    Paid for profiles like TMS/Tone Junkie etc sound totally different.


    I know this is going to be a can of worms lolz :)


    Thanks

  • Are you unsatisfied with the overall sound of your profile or are you unsatisfied with the difference between the profile and the physical amp/cab when you A/B the sounds?

  • Are you unsatisfied with the overall sound of your profile or are you unsatisfied with the difference between the profile and the physical amp/cab when you A/B the sounds?

    Unsatisfied with the profile. Using a paid for profile, I can get very close to the "real amp" sound. Just disappointed with my profiling attempts :)

  • Paults it's right... it's all about mic positioning and techniques.

    You have to find a balanced spot of the speaker and the sweet spot in the amp tone, gain and volume. Normally... you obtain more harsh near to the center, and a more dull sound as you go off-axis or add inclination to the mic. I recommend starting at some point near to the "cap edge" (image below).

    Also you get a bassy and dry sound near the cloth and it gets more boomy when you move away (with a 57 you should start near the cloth)


    If don't have a Studio with an isolated room with the amp it's very dificult to check and refine the sound, because even with headphones, the noise of the amp don't let you hear the clear take of the mic and it's normal to not get a good sound at the first try. I recorded my last album with a Marshall JTM45 and when I profiled the amp I cannot tell the diferrence between both of them.

    Also... you have to think Sound Engineering its a half science and half art, before you profile the amp it's essential to get a good sound.

    And last thing: Most of the good profiles of the better brands of third party profiles get the sound from a mic blending. (Example: MBritt uses a 57 plus a Cascade FatHead II, I love the SM57+Roger121 combination) I don't like very much the sound of a single SM57 (IMMO), the work can be done... yes, but usually you have to change the mic to find a good spot a lot more, and without Studio Monitors and Isolated room... you go blind in the process (so trial-and-error approach).


    I hope you can forgive my bad english :D(I'm not a native speaker) and I REALLY hope you can obtain what you are looking for with this basic notions.
    And if you can't: Look first some videos on Youtube about how to get an amp micked. And if you have another SM57 and a common mixer you can even try a FREDMAN technique.


    Cheers!

  • Funny thing is in my experience, with a single SM57 , you usually obtain the opposite result: a hars and thin sound.

    SM57 is a standar in micked amps because it add the texture or the grain you have listened in legendary recordings, but... usually sound too thin, with a poor bottom and a little hurting mid frecuency.


    So, why you obtain a dull sound?

    Probably you have to push the mic to the center of the speaker. The most harsh sound came from the mic pointing straight to the cap. Try a bit closer to the center of the speaker. Take a phone with the light on or a flashlight and observe carefuly the position of your speakers behind the cloth. And use the position guidelines we talk about. Just that!

    Some facts:

    -You should be able to get a harshy sound of a sm57 in any case (In fact, usually it's what you want to avoid in this mic)

    -If you use low volumes on valve amps, it sound like if you put a blanket over the amp. But if you push the volume extremely hard, you can obtain too much compresion

    -Kemper work very very well profiling all kind of Marshall sounds. It should nail it


    Some tips:

    -If a speaker isn't sounding good and don't obtain results changing the mic pos... use another speaker (it's common to have a speaker damaged or even dead) or even other sm57 mic (it's a sturdy mic, but I have 3 and 1 it's almost dead and have different response)

    -If you don't have studio conditions (where you are able to hear what is coming from the mics without hearing the direct amp) you must have to improve or develope a way to do it: use a DAW or the X32 to record some riffs, them stop and listen what you have recorded. If you don't like the result move the mics to a new position and repeat the process until you find a usable balanced spot.

    -To get a sound from an amp with mics it's all about what mics are receiving. The "amp in the room" sound doesn't matter. Only what you are recording matters. So if you need treble or presence in the recording try to give it in the amp too. Even when the amount of highs in the room could be disgusting.

    -You can use and record several mics at the same time in parallel tracks to compare between mics or blend them to obtain the sound you want. But remember profiling process with a blend of mics need to be combined in a mono bus of the mixer to send it to the Kemper. And this part is always better with analog mixers (avoiding 2 digital conversions)


    I hope now you can get the picture and make a new profile. But, i'm telling you... after this we will want to hear those profiles !! :D

  • People keep stating that the problem is the mic position. I still have doubts about what the issue is though.


    Let me ask this way then. Does the profile sound the same as the source? Or does it differ from each other?


    A different mic position will not change anything if the profile sounds different from the source. Or....yes it will. You can of course just try your luck and move the mic and do a profile until you have a sound that is satisfactory. That might take some time, because most will listen to the sound coming out of the speakers when going for a sound. But if that sound is clouded by the real amp, you will not get close to the sound that you are searching for. And by moving the mic around you might at some point reach your goal. But you will reach it sooner and easier by making sure that what you hear from your source through A/B testing, that it only are the speakers and not leakage from your amp.

    You have to make sure that you have optimal insulated rooms to separate the sound from the source and the sound of the profile. A different mic position will make a difference if the sound of the source and the sound of the profile sounds similar. When you have reached this point, you have come far.

    The biggest mistake is probably the fact that you A/B on wrong terms. When you don’t have placed the amp far enough away from your Kemper. When you do your A/B testing between your profile and the source, you will hear the sound of the source coming from both the speakers in your room and you will hear the sound coming directly from the source as well and that will cloud your judgement.

    When eliminating this mistake you have the option of moving the mic around to find the place it does not sound dull and you will be able to make a profile that sounds pretty similar to the source.

    Edited once, last by b_ryan ().

  • I notice you said that you are using 2 SM57 to make the profile. That could be the problem. Are you sure both mics are perfectly in phase with each other? If they are out of phase you will find certain frequencies cancelled. This usually results in thin, lifeless or dull sound but it changes depending on the phase relationship between the mics.


    Try making a profile with just one SM57 right in the centre of the speaker and plugged straight into the KPA return (no desk etc). If this doesn’t cut your hear off with brightness then start looking elsewhere for the problem.


    Another potential problem could be your room. In a typical home untreated room you are likely to have serious problems with bass and lower mid frequencies due to modal interference. This will get worse the louder you play. If you cab and or mic is in one of these locations it will be almost impossible to get a decent sound. Try using a tone generator in your DAW starting around 60hz and move around the room listening for places where the sound becomes louder or softer. Repeat again for each frequency until around 2khz. It is not uncommon to have a few frequencies that totally disappear at certain locations in the room. Place the cab an mic in a position that suffers least from these dead or boosted frequencies.


    As for trying to compare the mic sound to the real amp when position the mic, a separate room os best but as ai don’t have one, I have developed a process that works well.


    Set a decent tone at the level you want to profile. Then turn the amp volume down a bit so that it isn’t overpowering. You are not trying to get the amp tone at this stage merely the impact of mic placement.


    Next record a little loop with the KPA looper and let it repeat while you move the mic.


    Use a set of good fitting in ear monitors (I use a pair of Shure SE425 with Snuggs custom molds) to shut out as much of the sound from the cab as possible when listening to the effect of moving the mic. Even this probably won’t blot out the live amp sound unless the headphone amp is set painfully loud.


    Now for the secret sauce ?


    Get a pair of industrial ear defenders from your local DIY store. The big ugly things that look like headphones. Wear these over the top of the in ear monitors. With this extra layer of isolation you should be able to hear a reasonable example of the mic’d sound as you experiment with mic position.

  • -If a speaker isn't sounding good and don't obtain results changing the mic pos... use another speaker (it's common to have a speaker damaged or even dead) or even other sm57 mic (it's a sturdy mic, but I have 3 and 1 it's almost dead and have different response)

    That's a good one. With my 4x12 cabs (ENGL PRO with V30 and old Marshall with PreRola Celestions) I tried miking every of the 4 speakers (one after another) to find the best sounding one in the particular box and the sweet spot for the mic. Marked this with tape and made many sound guys happy when entering the stage telling them this is the spot to go with the mic :)


    And that's actually true for the profiling as well. In principle it would make sense to profile and move the mic by a centimeter or two and profile again until you have the full way over the speaker. Then you have a bunch of profiles to select the best ones (in best case a few days later with fresh ears). As I have to work without a proper control room and without a helping hand that's the only way to find the sweet spot...