Rig Manager | Windows App Scaling

  • I made a video showing my biggest gripe with Rig Manager since day 1 ... and a comparison to other apps ... SCALING (and the lack of it in Rig Manager)


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    Please watch and discuss here.


    Cheers

    Martin

  • yes, i can see advantages and disadvantages to both methods. In the SD3 approach it is easy to resize the window without rescaling which makes it possible to view more or fewer columns/rows as required but needs an extra step to adjust scaling.


    with the Nexus approach rescaling is automatic so is much slicker and faster to work with BUT it is more difficult to add/delete visible rows/columns.

    My personal preference would be for dragging a corner to automatically rescale but dragging a side or top/bottom to resize the window without rescaling.

  • I think the longest thread in Kemper history was the "why isn't the editor done yet?!" one, so I would imagine the push has been to get it working and stable for the largest group of people first. I run 2k, i.e. 1920 x 1080, and RM is readable. 4k screens are out there, but probably in small enough numbers to be considered an "edge case."


    Even then, I would imagine that lots of people who own 4k screens don't run at full 4k res. At a certain point, you're trading one problem for another. Yes, you can get more Cubase channel strips in your mixer, but that means the channel real estate gets so small that eventually there's not enough room for text. Make the text bigger, you'll have room for fewer channel strips. Keep it small and there's room for more information, but you can't read it. It seems like a simple problem to solve, but it's really not.


    Another thing to consider is time. If this was a brand new app written from the ground up that would still be a big chunk of work, but rewriting an existing app to do the kind of scaling you're talking about is a major project. While I agree that it's important for 4k users running at full resolution (who may well be a minority of all 4k users), I doubt the majority of users would be willing to wait another six months to a year for a complete rewrite of RM just to make it work on full res 4k screens.


    Software development is a constant exercise in trade offs. Because of this, full res 4k people may be left in the cold for a while, just as Windows 7 users were, in order to get the most functionality to the most people.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • ... to be considered an "edge case."

    Hey Chris, thanks for the effort to tell me I should be considered an "edge case". :D

    You might be surprised by the amount of 4K+ screens being used in studios nowadays. Of course I don't have any numbers but it's certainly not so much of an "edge case" anymore.


    Regarding software development: I don't think this would take a "complete rewrite" and 6 months to 1 year. The software backend can certainly remain, only the frontend (UI) needs to change. Yes, it's a little bit of work but it's not rocket science either. It just requires the will to improve the software so it can adapt to pretty much all use cases.

  • You might be surprised by the amount of 4K+ screens being used in studios nowadays. Of course I don't have any numbers but it's certainly not so much of an "edge case" anymore.

    I use a 4k screen and I don't have an issue with Rig Manager.

    Get in touch with Profiler online support team here

  • G, you obviously have pretty good eyesight ?


    Seriously though, I don’t mean to sound negative about RM3 or to seem to be picking faults with RM in particular. I think Martin makes a VERY good point about all software apps in the current world. I struggle to read the text on my 5K Retina display on lots of apps. Some apps I can no longer be bothered using because of it, so I find alternative apps to make my life easy.


    The ability to rescale is becoming a basic “cost of entry” type function now and will no doubt continue to become even more of an expectation over time. It would seem sensible for a new program to include this feature in the design from day one rather than release something without it and have to add it as a workaround at a later date. Having said that, I am not a software designer and have no concept of how easy/difficult this would be in practice.

  • Hey Chris, thanks for the effort to tell me I should be considered an "edge case". :D

    Trust me, it's far better than what people call me! ^^

    You might be surprised by the amount of 4K+ screens being used in studios nowadays. Of course I don't have any numbers but it's certainly not so much of an "edge case" anymore.

    Of course, joking aside, edge case doesn't mean your experience should be considered less important than anyone else. I was just thinking in terms of the most features for the most people, at least on the first release, and 4k monitors are still the minority. I think 4k is becoming increasingly popular, but because of the tiny text thing you highlighted and Alan also spoke to, I'm not sure all 4/5k owners are actually running at full resolution.

    I use a 4k screen and I don't have an issue with Rig Manager.

    G, are you running yours at full 3840 x 2160 (-ish) resolution, or do you run at 1920x1080? If you do run at full res and your RM listing text is as tiny as Martin's then I agree with Alan - you have exceptionally good eyes! And as Alan mentioned, some of us haven't been 20 for quite some time now. :)

    Regarding software development: I don't think this would take a "complete rewrite" and 6 months to 1 year. The software backend can certainly remain, only the frontend (UI) needs to change. Yes, it's a little bit of work but it's not rocket science either. It just requires the will to improve the software so it can adapt to pretty much all use cases.

    Naturally I don't know how long it would take to do since I don't work on their code. That said, in most software it's not the back end that's a PITA. It's all the fiddly UI stuff. Writing a character mode DOS app back in the day, the UI was trivial and it was all about the back end. In Mac / Windows, writing the user interface is often the most time consuming thing in the entire app. It's easier if you're writing websites as it's based on the simplistic model of html. For native programs, however, you're writing to the Windows / MacOS api calls, and it's never as straightforward is you'd think. It may not require a degree in rocket engineering design, but by the time you're done and have jumped through 100 hoops, it can sometimes feels that way.

    I just checked. Even though I'm running a 2012 iMac it has a 27" 5K Retina display which probably explains why the test is so small ^^But it is still an issue for me as my monitor sits behind an old Mackie 32:8 desk so is 1.2m away from my eyes. At nearly 51 years old I can barely see the Apple logo let alone the text =O

    What resolution does that run at? I remember a whole lot of complaints on Cubase forums when the redid the UI that things didn't play nice with Retina displays. I would think if it was 1920 x 1080 that it would be normal size text but very clean due to the high dpi. However, it's running 3840 then couldn't you just change the res to 1920? I'm among the Mac Ignorant so I don't really know how that world works.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • I was just thinking in terms of the most features for the most people, at least on the first release

    Chris, you are aware that I'm talking about Rig Manager in the first place? We're way beyond first release, many years actually. ;) And yes, I have complained before about the lack of scaling ... without success.

    G, are you running yours at full 3840 x 2160 (-ish) resolution, or do you run at 1920x1080?

    Given that G String is on Windows (which is the topic in this thread), he'd have to be pretty hardcore to accept the terribly blurry and awkward Windows system scaling. This would be very hard on his eyes and I would expect G "Eagle" String to turn into G "Mole" String in no time. ;)

    I would think if it was 1920 x 1080 that it would be normal size text but very clean due to the high dpi. However, it's running 3840 then couldn't you just change the res to 1920?

    On Mac, system scaling is much better but it still doesn't make sense to pay for a 5K display just to restrict yourself to 1920x1080. There's apps that can make very good use of the higher resolutions. Rig Manager certainly isn't one of them though.


    Cheers

    Martin

  • Yeah, my head was into the whole "editor feature version 1.0" frame of mind, so I see your point on that.


    And honestly, in all things 4k I'm really talking stuff I don't know since all my monitors are 2k. However, one of the reasons for that is to avoid precisely these kinds of adventures. Even when I do make the move it's more likely to be for a TV than a computer monitor, since for most stuff the computers I have are close enough for rock and roll and I don't want Alan's experience of having to find replacements for otherwise useful apps because they don't play nice with high res.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • G, are you running yours at full 3840 x 2160 (-ish) resolution, or do you run at 1920x1080? If you do run at full res and your RM listing text is as tiny as Martin's then I agree with Alan - you have exceptionally good eyes! And as Alan mentioned, some of us haven't been 20 for quite some time now. :)

    Native 4K (3840x2160) on a 46" monitor / no scaling on mac. In other words, RM looks the same like in Martin's video but my screen + distance to where I sit allows me to read it without issues. Before that, I was working with a 34" Widescreen (3440x1080) and that worked for me as well without scaling.

    As it said, of course it would be nicer if RM would allow you to fully scale everything but I also would like to note that this issue doesn't come up frequently in our support department, if ever, and therefore is a low priority item on our list.

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  • Native 4K (3840x2160) on a 46" monitor / no scaling on mac. In other words, RM looks the same like in Martin's video but my screen + distance to where I sit allows me to read it without issues. Before that, I was working with a 34" Widescreen (3440x1080) and that worked for me as well without scaling.

    As it said, of course it would be nicer if RM would allow you to fully scale everything but I also would like to note that this issue doesn't come up frequently in our support department, if ever, and therefore is a low priority item on our list.

    I'm not surprised it doesn't come up frequently for you at this stage of the game. One day down the line full res 4k will probably become popular even in 20-something inch sizes (which I suspect is more common for people), but I don't think today is that day.


    I used to have a 42" in the control room, but I have one of those Argosy consoles and it forced me to look up for long periods of time. Not good on the neck and shoulders, so I put a 27" on an arm and have it close enough to touch. My programming monitors are 24" and also that close. They all work fine for Cubase / RM / VS / etc. at 2k, but if they were full res 4k the monitors are small enough that I'd have a tough time reading the text. Not just on RM, but pretty much everything, which is why I haven't been interested in them.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10