Can't get a cabinet sound that I like - about to give up and go back to tube amps

  • I love the Kemper for the flexibility and convenience, but after 2 years I am still unable to get a sound that I can live with through a speaker cabinet. Relative to a real tube amp, it lacks punch, directness, and low end fullness relative to a tube amp driving the same cabinet. I have concluded that a big part of the problem is muddiness in the lower frequencies (harmonic distortion?). I have had some success suppressing some frequencies in the bass and accentuating some mids to try to address the muddiness, but that means going in and tweaking every rig (which I gather most are not doing, and which takes me too far down the rabbit hole of constant tweaking rather than playing). Plus, the EQ block affects the FOH sound as well as the monitor sound (i.e. signal to the cabinet without the cab sim). I have tried multiple cabinets, and have tried driving with the Magnum 44, with clean audio amplifiers, and with the power stage of tube amps. I get the best results with the power stage of tube amps, but then I am left having to cart a tube amp for performances which largely negates the convenience factor of the Kemper. The only thing that I haven’t tried is a more expensive solid state power amp (e.g. Matrix). By the way, I have used countless rigs purchased from all of the usual suspects. I’m just about ready to give up on the Kemper and go back to my Mesa Triple Crown completely. So many people with better ears than mine seem to be completely happy with the Kemper - can anyone suggest something that I might be missing? Thanks,

    Eric

  • Have you tried using the dedicated monitor output EQ in the output menu? That works globally for all rigs and does not affect the sound that is coming out of the main outputs. Its sole purpose is to adjust the sound of the PROFILER to the cab that you are using for monitoring.

  • Are you getting good results with headphones? If so, it should translate well to a fairly neutral cab.

    Maybe the Mesa TC is your tone after all.

    I run my unit through a HeadRush FRFR112 for Blues, Classic Rock, Hard Rock and I love it.

    I have about 100 profiles (mostly commercial) loaded in, which I use with very minimal tweaking depending on the type of guitar.

    If you've used countless rigs and are still unable to find a decent tone, then maybe the KPA is not for you.

    For my part, I was simply blown away the first time I tried it and still am after 3 years.

    But that's just me. Tone is very subjective and maybe my gear would sound like crap to your ears.

  • I had pretty much the same problem in rehearsal/gig volumes. Kemper isn't meant to work great with real guitar cabs with a solid state power amp (they say it is, but I believe it's not, at least from my experience with it). The harmonic richness, the power, the complexity and the fatness of a real tube power amp section was always missing. And if you have to carry a tube poweramp with it you are losing the whole point of the kemper which is convenience and portability.


    BUT, it's great for recondings and for use live through monitors, frfr's and PA speakers, and I can live with that :) With all its problems (yes, I have found a few more in the way) it is still a great invention and 200% worth the money. In fact, I think it's the best purchase I have ever made in my life so far, and not talking only about guitar-related stuff :D:D tons of hours of fun!

  • The point you are flagging is that the sound of amp in a room from the KPA is inherently different to that of a tube amp via a cab. the differences are in the ears of the beholder and there are many factors at play ( not comparing apples with apples).


    Hence why some people try to add with a Valve amp power stage to try to add it back. Personally I think this just confuses the signal chain i.e. another thing to account for/balance etc. I feel the same about pedals but that another story...


    You should try FRFR but I think you will find the same problem, defo worth a try before you give up. I assume you have tried merged profiles as well? I assume switching cab monitor in and out makes little difference?


    I also assume you like the sound FOH? I have come to accept that my back line sound is now less important. Its 90% there and actually I've adjusted to loving it now, but it is different. I just need to love it enough to play well.


    My focus is on my FOH sound which has never been as good so I've had to change my view on amps. As a result I could not go back to a thumping on stage sound but inconstant FOH sound.


    It took me 18 months to love my KPA. That was because for that time I was using like a regular amp ( guitar cab miked up). I also noticed DRASTIC differences between cabs which I'd never noticed with my Valve amp. In the end I realised that the cabs colour the sound so much that it always felt muffled.


    I switched to FRFR and I had to change all my profiles and effectively start again because the cab had hidden crap profiles ( not in your case because you are also goign direct) BUT it showed how much the cabs affected the sound. I didn't instantly love FRFR but I knew the sound out of my monitor was then almost identical to FOH, taking the complexity out of the differences. Because I think i have crap ears, it took many people telling me what a great sound I had ( NEVER had that pre KPA despite running top amps) until I believed in my sound.


    The point of that story is that for me its was more psychological than anything - I would never change my KPA now because of that.


    Hope you get it sorted.

  • My opinion is that the Kemper is best when you embrace it for what it is, rather than drilling into the differences between it and a tube amp. I also think FRFR is the best sound, but it's not a tube amp. If you want that tube amp blasting on stage sound, then a tube amp is still the best choice. I love a quiet stage, so that's the opposite of what I'm after. Diversity makes the world go around. ?


    Are other band members or friends in the audience saying your tone used to be better?

  • I've said this in many of my previous posts when talking about a live/stage sound setup. Even when using FRFR, you have to EQ the monitor output to match the main output in order to achieve the same sound unless you are using the same speaker/setup for both your mains and monitors...



    Have you tried using the dedicated monitor output EQ in the output menu? That works globally for all rigs and does not affect the sound that is coming out f the main outputs. Its sole purpose is to adjust the sound of the PROFILER to the cab that you are using for monitoring.

  • I have struggled to find a solution for a cab for the Kemper as well. Although my goal is maybe a little simpler as I just want something that sounds great like my cabs do with real tubes when playing at home. I do not tour so I just want to have something with some chest thumping feel. I have the powered rack version and can seem to dial in direct profiles with with some tweaking. However, the majority of profiles out there are studio packs. They are becoming more available but it would be nice to have a great solution for both studio and direct. When it comes to the home user.


    With that being said, I normally run studio profiles into some 8 inch studio monitors. That is okay and generally do not have to tweak much to get a good sound provided the profiles are good. However, I would like to run a cab or something comparable to a 212 or 412. So I thought to give a FRFR powered cab a shot. I tried a Mission Gemini 2. I thought the cleans sounded great but the chug rhythm tones were crazy to dial in. I found myself twisting the knobs quite a bit but at the end of the trial it was a no go.


    The Gemini 2 FRFR seemed very boxy sounding as you moved back from it. Upclose it was had some punch and then as I backed up it just felt honky and lack of low end. I tried adjusting the EM Power dial as well to dial back some harshness which helped but still left something to be desired. Unfortunately I was trying this unit at someone's apartment. The room was very sensitive to standing waves which may have ruined my experience as I am used to playing in a treated home studio without subfloors as in an apartment.


    The point to all this is I do not know if there is a good solution for a Kemper to give you that tube amp feel thump in the chest as a cab will with tubes. I am hopeful to try the Friedman ASM 12 or the line 6 power cab to see if they are any better than the Gemini 2 was. I also hope to get another shot at the Gemini in my own environment . Although seems like a lot of money for a unit that might not perform well in multiple environments. Maybe I am using the Kemper not the way it was intended. It works great for recording and I can imagine FOH situation. I want it to shine in a home studio when I try to raise the roof as well. Nice to have options of amps with the Kemper when I get bored of a certain tone. Just be nicer if when I do change tone that the Kemper can set me back in my chair like a tube head does thru a 412.


    I am hopeful that maybe the Kemper Cone Cab or whatever it is that might be released at NAMM in a week, might be the solution for people like me that want to be able to run studio profiles at higher SPL than studio monitors. Maybe get an empty 212 cab and stick in two of the new celestion speakers that Christopher Kemper mentioned during last years Winter NAMM preview of the Kemper Cab. Sounds like the speakers were going to be offered on their own. Let the Kemper's DSP do the work thru the new Celestion made exclusively for Kemper?



    Tone is in the ear of the beholder. So I might be way in left field on all this. My ears just have not found the solution for the Kemper yet. I have been a Kemper user since not long after they started showing up on you tube and think it is amazing. Just looking to have my cake and eat yours too! Thanks to anyone that might have some suggestions. \m/

  • I love the Kemper for the flexibility and convenience, but after 2 years I am still unable to get a sound that I can live with through a speaker cabinet. Relative to a real tube amp, it lacks punch, directness, and low end fullness relative to a tube amp driving the same cabinet. I have concluded that a big part of the problem is muddiness in the lower frequencies (harmonic distortion?). I have had some success suppressing some frequencies in the bass and accentuating some mids to try to address the muddiness, but that means going in and tweaking every rig (which I gather most are not doing, and which takes me too far down the rabbit hole of constant tweaking rather than playing). Plus, the EQ block affects the FOH sound as well as the monitor sound (i.e. signal to the cabinet without the cab sim). I have tried multiple cabinets, and have tried driving with the Magnum 44, with clean audio amplifiers, and with the power stage of tube amps. I get the best results with the power stage of tube amps, but then I am left having to cart a tube amp for performances which largely negates the convenience factor of the Kemper. The only thing that I haven’t tried is a more expensive solid state power amp (e.g. Matrix). By the way, I have used countless rigs purchased from all of the usual suspects. I’m just about ready to give up on the Kemper and go back to my Mesa Triple Crown completely. So many people with better ears than mine seem to be completely happy with the Kemper - can anyone suggest something that I might be missing? Thanks,

    Eric

    What style of music are people playing? If possible please state that, because I suspect this issue mainly pertain to some styles. I have the same issue for metal sounds, but the Cililabs 5150 Stealth DI profiles are pretty good actually with my Rivera 4x12 V30 cab.

    Kemper PowerRack |Kemper Stage| Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune | 1988 Desert Yellow JEM

  • you mentioned using top quality profiles from the usual suspects. Have you tried making a simple direct profile of your own Triple Crown? This is the only way to tell whether the Kemper is capable of delivering a truly tube amp like experience.


    we are all different, have different ears, rooms and are looking for different things but my experience of making a direct profile of my Mesas and A/B testing against the real amp through the same cabinet (I am using the powered Kemper) is that they are virtually indistinguishable. They are definitely close enough for me to have no concerns about the ability to get the same sound/feel live without lugging my Mesas around.


    maybe you just don’t like other people’s profiles.

  • A big thank you to everyone who replied - very much appreciated!


    To answer some of the questions:

    - FRFR and/or PA - I haven't tried FRFR, but will - I do have an Electro Voice powered PA that I have used with it, but I'm not keen on the boxy and honky sound

    - Monitor EQ (as distinct from main output EQ) - yes, I do use that, but the EQ'ing that I have done to get rid of the 'mud' is a studio EQ in the Kemper signal chain

    - Style of music - all kinds as I play in a cover band (weddings, parties, events),etc

    - FOH sound - yes, I am happy with that (compared to mic'ing my cabinet), but to be honest I'm equally happy with the PA output of the Mesa TC

    - Making my own profiles - yes, I have tried that, but the recent Mesa TC profiles from Tone Junkie are better than anything I have been able to make myself (though I always find myself pulling down on the highs in Tone Junkie profiles - a bit too shrill right out of the box to my ears)


    Mschribes comments come closest to capturing my conundrum - I'm happy enough with the FOH sound and like the flexibility of the Kemper, but when I'm playing at home (98% of my playing) I want it to sound like a tube amp and I just can't quite get there. I'll keep trying some more (and try a true FRFR), but it sounds like I either have to accept "good enough" for when I'm practicing, or limit by use of the Kemper to live.


    Thanks again for all of the help!

  • I use a matrix amp into a regular cab to get that amp in the room sound and I am happy with it. Cabs are of course turned off for that output. FOH of course gets cabs turned on. I play this setup at home all the time through a guitar cab and it sounds great, at various volumes.

  • Has anyone tried the following cab with the Kemper Power Amp?

    https://missionengineering.com…roducts/speakers/km-212p/


    Seems a bit steep for a 212 but if it provides an excellent experience for studio profiles for chuggy metal rhythms as well as chimey cleans , to dirty blues profiles, it might be worth it. I have not been able to find any you tubes on it. There a few good reviews on Sweetwater but no videos that I can find. Wondering if it will be the same boxy and honky sound that I felt the Gemini 2 had? Anyone have any exposure to this thing? Thanks again.

  • Mission KM-212P


    Found this.

    Kemper PowerRack |Kemper Stage| Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune | 1988 Desert Yellow JEM