Neural Quad Cortex

  • From "game changer" to "sounding as good as...".


    Atm I can not see where this unit sounds groundbreaking better or better at all.


    It seems that the captures sound better than their modelling. And these captures have yet to prove to be superior to the Kemper profiles.


    Even if this will be a good product with potential, if the modelling and captures are not noticeable (!) superior to the competition the hype will fade away and many people will eventually go for the cheaper next generation Hotone, Mooer, NUX in the next years... or buy used gear like Kemper, Axe FX. I just don't see any revolutionary improvements on the QC, but I see the vst amps and cheaper asian products coming closer and closer...

  • Praised ui seems to be very limited from the Paul Davids video - whats the point in having all that touchscreen space if you cant drag/swipe/drop most of the things and it just acts as a button? Also looks like from all the demo's effects quality for 1600 price point sounding worse than helix stomp - oof.

  • I think the devil will be in the detail. While the QC might have a superior capture process, the real meat and potatoes comes from after the fact. How can you modify the capture to fit the preset? To fit the FRFR solution being used? How that capture fits into a mix. The Kemper has Definition and Clarity to modify the profile after the fact and that's immeasurably helpful. Same with the capability of taking a studio profile and changing the cab on the fly is very handy too. So far it looks like the QC is limited in these areas thus leaving the user entirely dependent on getting the capture 100% on point every single time.

  • Even if they sound more accurate right off the bat, they're way less flexible and there's way less you can do with the Captures.


    Neural DSP came up with a cool thing similar to Profiling but it has some fundamental drawbacks regardless of whether or not they sound good.

  • Who knows, maybe they did come up with something novel in the past year that the paper doesn't show. But another inference from their 2020 paper would be that they're running a low quality, low processor-intensive neural network, like the RNN32 from their paper which runs 8 * real-time on their PC with a confidence interval of just 80%. The QC Capture demos are close and impressive, but I don't really hear some unprecedented accuracy type thing listening to demos like with the Tube Screamer.

    Maybe, but the fact that Doug totally danced around any explanation to disprove what we were saying, really doesn't look good lol.


    BTW, thanks for liking my posts over on TGP. It got pretty rough over there man. Defending myself from all sides lol:D But seeing you liked my posts on TGP made me feel like I had a friend in my corner over there :)I appreciate the support, brother!

  • Maybe, but the fact that Doug totally danced around any explanation to disprove what we were saying, really doesn't look good lol.


    BTW, thanks for liking my posts over on TGP. It got pretty rough over there man. Defending myself from all sides lol:D But seeing you liked my posts on TGP made me feel like I had a friend in my corner over there :)I appreciate the support, brother!

    Well, try to ask CK how the algo is working inside KPA ;) :P

  • I think the only way to use other cabs with Captures is to use a Capture of just an Amp. Kind of like a Direct Profile instead of a Studio Profile. If you do an Amp+Cab Capture then you're stuck with that Cab in the capture and you only have a 3 band eq and Gain. I've looked do that quite a bit because it seems like a HUGE drawback to me compared to Profiles. Not too much flexibility for the Captures so far. So I'm wondering how usable they'll be in comparison to Kemper Profiles due to the lack of tweak-ability for Captures.

    Yes, this is another example of how genius the Cabdriver feature in the Profiler is.

  • I'll stick with my kemper and keep it safe in a rack, loving the build in amp, loving it to only have a cat5 cable running to the remote. I hate having powercables in the front, speakercables going to the backline , guitar plugged in in the front...

    Exactly where I'm coming from too. I love my Kemper Rack. Live, it sits behind or beside me, off the floor, safe, mounted away from harm. Cables run from it's rear to FoH, power amp, cab etc. out of the way. In the studio it sits at eye level, I can tweak it easily by hand.


    I don't understand the love for stage floor units like the QC. Look at the miles of spaghetti spewing out the back of it. Think about a typical live setup on a small venue stage shared by a couple of bands. 2 x XLR to FoH then two jacks running cables backstage to an amp and into an FRFR or a mixer for in-ears!! Then there's a 12v adapter (wall wart in the US) to contend with.


    The QC reviews have been interesting. Paul Davids exposed the current GUI flaws but it's at v1.0 and it'll mature but unlikely to change it's form factor. In the studio (or studio bedroom) it has to be on a low desk with it's myriad of cables running out the back so you can use the touchscreen. Tom Quayle had it upright on a music stand. Other guys used a low footstool... This is not ideal especially in a small room full of other gear.


    It sounds good, that's undeniable but after 8 years of general tech progress it's not sounding markedly 'better' than my Michael Britt profiles through the Kemper just different. Certainly nothing you'd hear in a gig environment (remember those..!) and who doesn't EQ/compress etc recorded guitar tones in a mix?


    I was initially curious as to what the QC would offer then realised the practicalities. Unknowns are whether Neural aim to do an 'Apple' and give a couple of years worth of firmware updates followed by the 'need' to buy newer hardware (i.e. QC2) to get further improvements? Not saying they will but who knows? Fractal seem to churn out new improved AxeFX hardware units at regular intervals which keeps the upgrade path expensive. Meanwhile I've had 8 years of fun with my 2013 Kemper, the best piece of musical/audio gear I've ever invested in, and it's improved immeasurably from v1.0 and it's all been completely $free. Is it perfect? What is?


    What I have enjoyed seeing from the QC release is the addition of a large touchscreen, that has bags of potential. Also, I 'd love to look at (for example) a Compressor pedal/unit in the Kemper and see 'regular controls' like 'Threshold/Attack/Release/Make Up Gain' or choose Opto/1176/VCA styles etc as that's how my brain works etc.


    Overall, for me, on form-factor alone a 'Kemper2' unit in a 3U rack with a 7" touchscreen or similar at the centre would be ace.


    We're lucky to be around while this stuff is being developed. More competition drives more progress. Long may it last.

  • Even the promoters dont claim it to be a "game changer".


    But in any case it will become a good example of how inyernet/hype/influencers brought the game onto the "next level" within the vast gear market.Indeed this is in any case a "game changer"..:S


    other than that..we don't know much about this product.

  • Historically CK has mostly been pretty cagey about what‘s going on in his profiling process. We already know it’s a scrappy approach, incorporating a repurposed language and beyond clever economy. What else do we really need?


    The thing is, CK marketed the magic of the Kemper. The science was besides the point. Ndsp promoted the science, and so yeah I guess for some people being able to discern whether or not that aspect of it is complete bs or not is valid.


    That said, CK has a lot more in common with the CEO of Neural than he does with any one of us Kemper users. Doug Castro could learn a lot from him. Innovation and creativity is one thing: producing a hit(s), managing international retail relationships, and keeping the pipeline stocked with product, all while overcoming the predictably unpredictable nightmare manufacture snafus, that’s another thing altogether.


    And hey while I like that recently CK seems more interested in participating in the discourse, and relatively relaxed about fielding opposing points of view, him staying completely out of the fray for years, especially on TGP—except in particularly extenuating circumstances—was also its own kind of gift to the community, by promoting the autonomy of the people interested in discussing his products.

  • I also wonder if the space sounds being generated at the input would be the same with kemper or Neural the captures would be identical ?


    Raf

    Kemper stage with 2 mission pedals (in a Thon line 6 FBV case) and a Zilla 212 (K-100/V30) , SD powerstage 700 poweramp

  • @CK is relaxed because he knows "normal people want what the superstars have".


    And while we have a lots of big names using the kemper on tour,leaving their rigs at home..we could not say the same about the contenders.Yes..Metallica..I know..but in any case things are sparse for fractal and most of the big names with the axefx in their rack use it for fx.This is a fact no one can deny.


    For neural to break into this world (of really big names using the qc for touring) will be not easy.Most guitar players coming from the tube rigs will most likely not like this modern UI and still prefer the amp like Kemper concept.Not to mention that most kemper users have no complains about how the profiles of their beloved rigs sound..and will stick to the "never change a winning team"..kind of thing.


    Maybe the qc us just "to late" or should have already a synth module on board creating really new sounds being this promised "game changer".


    But after thousands of blind tests with the kemper being indistinguishable from the source rig with countless YouTube's on this..how much of a real game changer any "new capture" technology can be?I mean..who really cares?Other than the usual "tech nerds"?


    We will see..

  • Exactly where I'm coming from too. I love my Kemper Rack. Live, it sits behind or beside me, off the floor, safe, mounted away from harm. Cables run from it's rear to FoH, power amp, cab etc. out of the way. In the studio it sits at eye level, I can tweak it easily by hand.


    I don't understand the love for stage floor units like the QC. Look at the miles of spaghetti spewing out the back of it. Think about a typical live setup on a small venue stage shared by a couple of bands. 2 x XLR to FoH then two jacks running cables backstage to an amp and into an FRFR or a mixer for in-ears!! Then there's a 12v adapter (wall wart in the US) to contend with.

    That’s exactly the way I see the world too ?


    Also, I 'd love to look at (for example) a Compressor pedal/unit in the Kemper and see 'regular controls' like 'Threshold/Attack/Release/Make Up Gain' or choose Opto/1176/VCA styles etc as that's how my brain works etc.

    oh, yes please!!!!

  • I think there is some binary thinking here. A professional's touring rig can differ immensely with what they have in total. Artists can use a tremendous variety of gear for practice or even recording. Their travel rig can be different. As well, just because a professional endorses a product doesn't necessarily mean that they use it. As well, the Kemper is not indistinguishable from the source rig, but in a mix, it can be. There is room for a thousand more modelers and people will decide for themselves. Ampero, Mooer, Headrush, Positive Grid. Players get added all of the time so I'm not sure why this is even a topic. Line 6 seems to think that way by releasing a model that even competes with themselves every other year.

  • Well, try to ask CK how the algo is working inside KPA ;) :P

    Lol I can understand that. But I was pretty clear that I was only looking for a dumbed down simple explanation and not the whole algorithm he's using ahaha:D


    I'd understand the defensiveness if I was asking for trade secrets, sure. But just saying "hey, something doesn't add up" and asking for a dumbed down explanation didn't seem like a huge ask to me. But idk, different people take things different ways so I can see how things could go sideways lol. :)


    But I mean, come on lol you can't tell us there's literally tech running that requires more processing power to run, and then not even give some simple reassurances like, "it really is that tech but it runs efficiently". Line literally, something reassuring and barely explained was all I was looking for and the guys response was "just trust us. We've made a bunch of amp models"


    But no matter what, it was a shot in the dark on my end to try and get some info for us consumers who see through the marketing lol

  • I think there is some binary thinking here. A professional's touring rig can differ immensely with what they have in total. Artists can use a tremendous variety of gear for practice or even recording. Their travel rig can be different. As well, just because a professional endorses a product doesn't necessarily mean that they use it. As well, the Kemper is not indistinguishable from the source rig, but in a mix, it can be. There is room for a thousand more modelers and people will decide for themselves. Ampero, Mooer, Headrush, Positive Grid. Players get added all of the time so I'm not sure why this is even a topic. Line 6 seems to think that way by releasing a model that even competes with themselves every other year.

    Binary thinking is to believe that a bigger part (not even talking about "majorities" here..)of guitar players will acquire at some point a modeler to replace or at least complement their tube rigs..which imo is pure wishful thinking ..


    Right now 15-25w boutique tube rigs take over everything.And they are not even expensive anymore.


    Who wants modelers?


    A)Working musicians for touring and recording.


    B)Producers.


    C)tube rig players who want to try "something new".


    D)tech nerds on the eternal adventure trip for the "best workflow and UI".


    Group C is the group which has ofcourse the "most potential" but for many reasons is also the group which does very often not stay with modelers and returns to tube rigs.Yes their idol (from Knopfler to Metallica) uses a modeler but..it does not work for them..amp in the room..'ya know..and nobody told them all this before..f%$# frfr..


    This will not change with any new modeler.For well known reasons.If the modeler paradigm does not find it's way into the "creating new sounds" kind of thing there is no way that the market share will grow.And we will continue to see strange,orchestrated hype and developers who will attack each other with who has the best algos,best UI or what ever.


    For sure it is a good show.I just doubt if this is enough.The market has to grow if all these companies want to survive.


    Again..we will see...

  • I think the audience for the first release of the QC will be the types who just enjoy playing with the latest shiny object. Like any decent new piece of gear, there are lots of cool things about this unit, and that's fun for no other reason than just playing with it.


    Also, early adopters typically understand what 1.0 means and are willing to accept a lack of polish / features or the occasional glitch, because a 1.0 product is really just a beta with the serial numbers filed off. Anyone who's been around understands this.


    As I'd mentioned to Alan when he was talking about his Tesla, I'm a Corvette guy. And I never, ever buy the first year of a new generation / series, because it takes a year or two to shake out the bugs, find out what works and what doesn't, and end up with something truly usable and reliable. Plus, it's probably a bad idea to be barreling down the freeway at 88 miles an hour in something that's essentially a glorified beta.


    I see new products like the QC in the same light. Buying it to have some fun with a cool new product is a different set of expectations than buying something that you want to be your workhorse on gigs. I wouldn't buy it for the latter because it's too new to be a known commodity. But that doesn't mean you can't have a great time if your life doesn't depend on it. It's all about managing expectations.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

    Edited once, last by Chris Duncan ().

  • What is Binary Thinking? Binary thinking, also known as dichotomous thinking, happens when even complex concepts, ideas, and problems are overly simplified into being one side or another. The rest that you mention is just garbage so I will stop there. You are now blocked

  • From "game changer" to "sounding as good as...".

    I think the term game changer was supposed by be the all in one solution that could do profiling and modeling. If one unit could do profiling better than Kemper and perform modeling better than the competition then I think it would be. I don't think that they have done that yet. As well, the form factor would have to appease everyone but I don't think that would ever happen unless they start offering rack equivalents. I think it is a great first effort. A few years from now it could be quite interesting.

  • I think it is a great first effort. A few years from now it could be quite interesting.

    Maybe.

    Modelling wise it's not quite an axe3.

    Effect wise it's not quite a Helix.

    As a profiler it's not quite a Kemper.

    Price wise it's too much. My opinion of course. :saint:Yours may vary.

    PS no need to block people who disagree with you, this is the Kemper forums.