Neural Quad Cortex

  • I still believe that a musician who’s happy about his instrument tone delivers a performance that is better. This is why some of the greatest bands in history, the handful of them who are actually known for going the extra mile in terms of sound design, and who spend exponential more tour dollars because they put in two and three hour sound checks at every venue, engender such devotion among their fans.


    That said, it’s also true that when people talk about guitar tone, from a single note perspective, especially over on TGP, there’s maybe a handful, definitely less than a dozen, guitarists who are referred to over and over, and it’s also true that one of the reasons is that they perform for the most part in a trio format where there’s almost nothing surrounding the guitar sound. And it’s probably true that those tones that are so rich and exciting and satisfying in that context have no place in most other musical contexts.


    But why is everyone trying to convince Drew that he shouldn’t think that his empirical discoveries are relevant if they’re relevant to him? I probably fall on the side of the sensibilities of several of the other people posting, but I guess I just don’t see how that matters for the purposes of discussing the accuracy of an algorithm.


    The one thing I’m finding a little bit frustrating about where this thread has been going is that you guys are launching assumptions about each other’s lack of experience behind a console without knowing anything about one another, especially professionally.

  • I have the QC, Kemper, and Axe Fx. I have this urge to just pick one and forget the others....it's essentially option paralysis. How do you focus on playing? I almost feel as if I need to pledge my time to one unit but then I feel guilty about the others just chilling there. I also read too much into guitar forums. Essentially everyone claims the QC to be heads and shoulders above the kemper but idk, I think they are very similar in terms of pure guitar tone and I often lean towards playing the kemper given my familiarity and maturity of the unit. I guess those who have a QC at the moment pre-ordered either within the first months of it being announced or shortly there after so maybe they have a bias given they have waited so long and also are obviously big NDSP fans if they preorded direct without any knowledge of the product. Not saying the QC is a bad product! Just that to me, it isn't the gamechanger they tried to push it to be.

    I think the one undeniable thing about all the units is you can get a killer sound out of all of them, it all comes down to personal preference.


    I think in someways the QC is a bit of a game changer because it combines modelling with the captures and the touch screen (even though I believe another unit has done it before)


    The Helix was a big game changer in terms of just ease of use, I think Fractal should have a hide option for all the deep editing stuff ...

    All these units right down to the POD have helped the evolution of this gear

  • 1) Do you believe you could pick out the QC, the original amp, and a KPA playing in the context of a full band?

    2) Do you believe that any differences that exist between the 3 would be noticed by an audience hearing only 1 of them live?


    I know there is plenty of A/B's of amps to models/profiles but would be more interesting to hear comparisons in a mix or live.

    Also I wonder in a mix is the aliasing of some units becomes much less of an issue?

  • Agreed.


    Everyone is arguing the same point.


    In summary:

    1) Could an audience tell the 1-5% difference between an accurate profile/capture, especially in a hot sweaty gig where everyone is into the music itself? Nope

    2) Can an audience spot a really poor guitar sound? Yep.

    3) Will they tell you? Nope.

    4) Is it important to love your sound to play better and therefore you have to be happy with your sound no matter what lengths you feel is right - Yep

    5) Is accuracy important? Yes because these are the only reference points we have.

    6) Is good sound better than accuracy? Ultimately yes but having a solid base makes this easier. Valve amps aren't perfect and shouldn't been seen as the "final stage" but are also what are generally considered the best guitar sounds we have. Every recording takes this sound and alters it so they are never one and the same.


    I'm happy drew makes these measurements because I never will and we need people to do this market research.


    I said from day one that I don't really listen to paid reviewers and I'd rather listen to opinions on here. You never take one opinion of course and hence I'm interested in these debates and it should be encouraged not criticised.

  • I'm afraid you've got this all back to front and inside out. First of all, I didn't make any claim. Someone else did. I was countering that claim. Their claim was that the audience doesn't care and can't tell the difference. I countered this with my empirical observations that they often do care, and do spot the difference between rigs in a live setting, but that the artists very rarely get to even hear the feedback.


    It was a completely tangential side-discussion that was not gear specific. You're making it gear specific. I've been to gigs where audience members will discuss guitar tones in between sets over beers, and they won't talk specifics because they don't know the gear. But they'll use words like fizzy, ice-picky, too boomy, etc etc - more descriptive language.


    The audience to some degree does notice your tone. They might not be able to articulate it like we can, but they do have ears.


    Quote

    1) Do you believe you could pick out the QC, the original amp, and a KPA playing in the context of a full band?

    2) Do you believe that any differences that exist between the 3 would be noticed by an audience hearing only 1 of them live?


    1 - No. I've never said I could.

    2 - Potentially. They just wouldn't describe it in the same way.

  • The one thing I’m finding a little bit frustrating about where this thread has been going is that you guys are launching assumptions about each other’s lack of experience behind a console without knowing anything about one another, especially professionally.

    I'm trying not to do that, I really am. I don't know anyone here and I don't know their background.


    My background is, I've been audio engineering for 20 years. I've produced professional music tech products for the last 14 of them. I've made (as part of a 2 man team) 504 profiles that were slated for commercial release. Unfortunately corporate NDA's prevent us from selling them at the moment. They're really good though.

  • But why is everyone trying to convince Drew that he shouldn’t think that his empirical discoveries are relevant if they’re relevant to him? I probably fall on the side of the sensibilities of several of the other people posting, but I guess I just don’t see how that matters for the purposes of discussing the accuracy of an algorithm.

    This is my take on it too. Even how I personally feel about the sounds is semi-irrelevant. I've got loads of great sounds here on my Kemper, but there is an amount of inaccuracy that annoys and frustrates me.

  • What about all the musicians that see the Kemper (or QC) as a great opportunity to "archive" and play the sound of amps they never can afford or are lucky enough to get close to?


    The guitarists that also enjoy playing their amps or Kemper for themselves. Not all the time in a band setting or "in the mix". Just noodling around and diving into the "world of legendary amps". Or don't want to stress their vintage gear and therefore profile their own rare/sensitive tube amps.


    For any device claiming to capture a gear chain, accuracy will be the main selling point for many people.


    For live use accuracy is not that important. It's not that important which guitar you use, as long it is "good looking" for the average audience. Noone ever said, that the quarter sawn maple neck really made the concert a winner soundwise.


    There are studios too, that don't care that much. It's more important that a guitar is properly tuned for each section, than if it is an Epiphone or Gibson for some engineers.


    But people who are buying Custom shop guitars will not stop, because their live mixer can not hear much difference to a mass-produced instrument in a live context. They will still enjoy their instrument in a different environment or for different reasons.

    And if a new run of custom shop LP will get 3% closer to the idealized original, it will be more desirable for some.


    And sometimes the 3 or 5% seem to exactly affect areas where you are especially sensitive and picky 8)

  • I know there is plenty of A/B's of amps to models/profiles but would be more interesting to hear comparisons in a mix or live.

    I'm more interested if a song is good or not. I'm more interested in a good riff and solo that fit the song. Oh And lets not forget how important the bass is for the guitar tone.

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

  • Yes it’s easy to act “above” the significance of guitar tone. Especially while posting on a guitar amp forum. LoL.


    I own amps that are now 50, 60, 70 years old. Including Valco, Gretsch, Supro. And without doing much to them they pretty much always sound amazing. Always have, always will. Maybe it was easier when there were less amps and for the most part they all sound good.


    Anyway, if we’re honest, tone most definitely matters. And ideally, it’s integral to the art of the recording. That goes for She Said or Come Together or Shine On You Crazy Diamond or or anything Nile Rodgers or JJ Cale or whoever moves you. Lenny Kravitz and The Black Crowes both set themselves apart from the digital playing field of the time by recommitting to uncompromising analog tones.


    Of course it’s a given that the musical context makes all the difference, and yes there are are a ton of great records where the guitar tones are thin little afterthoughts. But there are a lot or records where the guitar tone is .. where it actually embodies or is even central to articulating the essence of the music. And there are examples like that from the beginning to the present day.


    Getting great guitar tone, being oriented toward not leaving that to happenstance, isn’t particularly challenging, but it does take a mindset. Again to come onto a forum for a product that was invented to satisfy the particular predilections of finicky musicians and say that the whole point of the device is kind of besides the point is .. just being too cool.


    I‘m cool too. I’ve spent a lot of time in a lot of studios with legends, mostly as a fly on the wall, and while there is an expectation that the guitars will sound great, it’s still a remarkable thing to behold when the sound comes together.

  • My background is, I've been audio engineering for 20 years. I've produced professional music tech products for the last 14 of them. I've made (as part of a 2 man team) 504 profiles that were slated for commercial release. Unfortunately corporate NDA's prevent us from selling them at the moment. They're really good though.

    My background is I've been playing guitar badly for the last 35 years. I am useless at determining a good sound and my ears are not very discerning....I have my Kemper for 2 main reasons:


    1) One stop shop solution, which is big for me

    2) Because I know its possible to get pro sounds out of it - so any sound issue is then my issue


    ....hence I rely on opinions like yours and others :)

  • Quote from ckemper


    We usually deal a lot with musicians that do not see Refining as a burden, but instead as a chance to control and polish the profiling outcome. As a good reference, there are the Guido Bungenstock videos that are spot on.

    I have the assumption that you are not interested in finding reasons for your Profiles having too much bass.


    How do you honestly expect me to react to this? Have I not demonstrated open-mindedness in several direct conversations with you over the years? I'm pretty sure I have.


    You have mentioned our earlier email conversation that we had back in 2015, about profiling and refining, you have approached me back then, to discuss refining results.

    Since constantly subpar refining results are very rare and usually have a specific technical reason, I am always happy to help in analysing the reasons.


    I have found back that 2015 email conversation and the last message was from you saying you will resume the conversation after further testing. As far as I have seen, this was the last email from you. Hence my post above.


    Now that there's a lot of enthusiasm to discuss this topic again, isn't it a good time to be curious and resume the talk?

  • LOL. Indeed.


    I think that we all are very fortunate to live in a time when tools like the KPA and QC are there for us to use. I know I waited a VERY long time for the KPA to come along while hauling around a metric sh** ton of tube amp gear every night ;).


    While tone definitely does matter, it has been my experience that it matters so much more to those of us who play guitar than it does to those who listen to any kind of live music. I do completely agree that having a lead guitarist that is inspired by his on-stage tone is critical to a "great" performance. In fact, I have had nights when the lead guitar player has become so distracted by his inability to achieve the "magic" he is accustomed to that he couldn't really do anything right.


    I believe that the QC is a good tool for home pluckers and a few other use models for sure. I am just not sure I buy into the idea that the Kemper's best feature is its ability to exactly mimic a specific tube amp setup (although I must admit this was the marketing that made me want to get one). Over the years, I have become much more enamored with its ability to be a killer live rig. Great FC layout, great efx, super easy to get a specific sound for a song, ultra reliable, rack version, etc, etc. Of course, I am a live player. I only rarely record, and I am much more concerned with how a specific tone sits in the mix than I am if that tone is an exact replica of the amp that was originally profiled. I am also very concerned with how easy a rig is to setup and tear down. I know ...... not really the exciting things to talk about with guitar gear, but man, I just couldn't do the whole head, cab and pedal board thing anymore.


    I do appreciate all the feedback being left here. You are right, I (at least) have been too quick to jump on Drew for things that really aren't that relevant to his good feedback on the QC just because it doesn't really work well for my specific use model.

  • I‘m a defender of Drew doing his thing. And I don’t doubt he’s experiencing the frustrations that he says he is. But since I’ve enjoyed years of remarkable tones that both do the reference amps proud and also have the ability to shapeshift a bit using novel KPA parameters in order to actually preempt certain characteristics of those amps that we’d normally address with eq after the fact in a mix (which however sacrilegious one may think that is is incredibly cool), albeit with lower gain amplifiers, I’m inclined to believe that CK may be able to help Drew get results that are more to his liking. Anyway it’s a nice offer.

  • Let's do it! I will email you.


    It's not exactly true to put this down to "bass" alone. I think that was the mistake I was making back in 2015. I've found your email, but unfortunately the clips I sent you back then I don't have anymore. I will prepare some more clips and get them over to you this week.

  • ckemper the email I have for you is dead, so please check your PM's.

    Good luck having these kind of support from any other company on the industry ;)


    I simply love how the kemper team is so close and personal in their attention to detail and care to the community. Let us know how the collaboration ends up :)

    The answer is 42

  • Good luck having these kind of support from any other company on the industry ;)

    Hey, I have to say that I have even closer and personal attention from the Diezel people. It is true that Diezel is an smaller company with less people and smaller numbers, but hey it´s not only Kemper doing things right.


    I mean... I had a small problem with my amp and Peter Diezel called me, to my phone, to solve the problem ASAP.

  • Good luck having these kind of support from any other company on the industry ;)


    I simply love how the kemper team is so close and personal in their attention to detail and care to the community. Let us know how the collaboration ends up :)

    I mean... I offer the same level of support to all of our customers ;)


    Big part of my job is making sure our customers are happy. And I encourage them to give me all feedback about our products, good and bad, so we can make decisions based on all of that input. I've got stacks of user research that helps me to decide where we go with our product line up. Exciting times!



    Hey, I have to say that I have even closer and personal attention from the Diezel people. It is true that Diezel is an smaller company with less people and smaller numbers, but hey it´s not only Kemper doing things right.


    I mean... I had a small problem with my amp and Peter Diezel called me, to my phone, to solve the problem ASAP.

    Diezel are amazing. I've had emails with Peter myself. He sent me a replacement midi eprom chip for my VH4 completely free of charge. He's an absolute diamond.