Combing two rigs

  • I know it’s possibly not very realistic to be able to run two rigs simultaneously due to the cpu, circuit board etc. But what about the possibility to combine two rigs into one rig?

    I imagine that the way to go about it would be like this: Press the “rig button” and it opens a choice between Rig A and Rig B. And Rig A is the current rig opened on the Kemper. Then you get to scroll for the rig you wish to combine with the current rig in use. And you get the choice of panning, volume etc.

    This could come in handy with two completely different rigs but also if you are doing you own profile of your own amp and want more than one mic. I know you can put a mixer in the setup of profiling and then combine different mics. But by this way it’s not necessary to do this.

    I realize that getting a usable combined tone can be a lot of trial-and-error due to the fact that you might not be able to hear the end result prior to the combining process. But I do see this a possibility that is based upon a software solution.

    This would imho take the Kemper to a completely new place and you don’t have to put out a Kemper 2 anywhere in the near future. You don’t have to anyway :)

  • When the Kemper came out Line 6 and other companies were already doing double rig setups in their units. So maybe......just maybe....Kemper knew this and was a step ahead in their own favor and implemented enough components to secure the future of this machine and not being forced to put out a Kemper 2. By future securing you save money in the long run. We’ve never really got an answer to what the machine is capable of, so we don’t know.

    But how much does it take to have loaded two rigs at the same time? Realistically. Does anyone know this for sure? I know nothing about this, but imagine that it could be done. Maybe they’ve already tested this many times and we just don’t know about it.

    Realistically it should be possible to run a “combining program” where only one rig is loaded at the same time and you switch between them and press “the combine button” and do a test to see if the new rig sounds right and then do a “save or delete” and start over if it’s not good.

    But again....when you put more and more features into your product it also gets more advanced and there’s definitely a fear of getting something that is too advanced out of it the end and going away from the idea of it being “plug n play”.

  • We’ve never really got an answer to what the machine is capable of, so we don’t know.

    But how much does it take to have loaded two rigs at the same time? Realistically. Does anyone know this for sure? I know nothing about this, but imagine that it could be done. Maybe they’ve already tested this many times and we just don’t know about it.

    Did you read my thread that I linked to, mate?

    Given that Kemper has stated many times that it's not possible to run two Profiles at the same time on the current hardware, I proposed the data-merging of two Profiles to-taste before rendering (being played).

  • As we know Two Notes and others already do it with IRs, and Kemper can extract the Cab portion of a Studio Profile by subtracting the Direct Amp Profile it certainly seems logical that a profile combining tool could be developed and added to the current hardware. I suppose the question is how many people really want it and how useful it would be in the real world as this would determine where Kemper see such a tool in the real world.

    for my needs it would be of zero interest but I know others seem to see it differently.

  • Monkeyman>>> No, I did not read the link, you provided. I searched the fora and read several times, that people state that we haven’t got any clear answer to what capabilities which lies within the psychical side of the unit. But I will read it today :)

    Wherestedug>>> To me it certainly makes sense. Who mics up an amp with only one mic? Most use two mics to complement each other. To do two profiles with two separate mics and combine them in the end seems like a great solution.

  • There’s absolutely nothing wrong with using only one mic, but I rarely see that anymore in a studio session. Live is a whole different game and also a matter of how much time there is, how many channels the mixer has and how much room for several mics is available etc. But to ME it gives the sound more life and becomes more pleasurable to listen to. Something an eq cannot really achieve. A dual rig setup is not something I really need or have ever needed as such. It’s more a question of combining two mics in one profile. I know I can achieve this by adding a mixer in the context of profiling. But I never really profile anymore. I use the Kemper rig exchange and try out rigs. But it would then open up a possibility to use the already profiled amps with the use of different mics and cabs. But IF I did my own profiles, I would appreciate this opportunity for sure.

  • There's no problem profiling an amp/cab with more than one microphone. Just keep in mind that profiling as we know it today has no "time based component". This means, it doesn't make sense to add a room mic to the mix unless you know you only want its color, not its "depth" (natural delay), as part of the resulting profile.

    Personally, I always profile using 2 microphones.

    Combining 2 rigs is a different story but not terribly difficult either .... as long as you can afford 2 Profilers. Results are insanely great, couldn't live without this option. :)

  • Yes, but for us, who don’t profile amps ourselves, but let others do the work for us ;), it would be a great opportunity to combine two rigs. And when I say rigs it could just as well just be the same amp and cab but with different mics (Two profiles/rigs without reverb, stomp etc). I don’t know how many people uses the Kemper like me opposed to people actually using it only to profile themselves? 50/50 maybe? That might be totally wrong, but I chose the Kemper over all others only because of the more realistic sound (in my ears). Not because of the profiler.

  • it would be a great opportunity to combine two rigs

    Yep, I do understand this and of course I wish we had a Profiler that could run 2 seperate rigs (signal chains). My solution for this was to buy a total of 4 Profilers (2 per studio). Wouldn't mind to get that slightly cheaper and more convenient at the same time. :D

    the same amp and cab but with different mics

    This might leave you quite underwhelmed, to be honest. The real beauty starts when you have 2 pretty different rigs (as in amps/cabs) which complement each other and do their very own thing (different gain, gain structure, response). This really opens another world of sounds and is so satisfying and rewarding to play and experiment with.

    For example, you would be very surprised to hear an old, vintage Selmer Treble'n'Bass 50 amp combined with a crunchy Mesa Boogie V in Mark IIC+ mode. That's where the fun starts. Using 2 microphones on a single amp and having them go into seperate signal chains won't come close at all.

    I perfectly understand that it's not so much fun with one Profiler only. You'd have to reamp to get a result. You never have the immediate "feel" of both amps while playing. But at least it's a way to explore and find out if this results in a sound you're craving for. :)

  • Underwhelmed? No, because that is exactly the way I would go about recording guitars. A guitar, one amp, one cab and two mics.

    I would then do another recording with another setup. Perhaps a different amp or mics or a different guitar. That’s where I blend the different sounds. Not on one track. It might be old school, but I think a lot does this. At least in metal. But at the particular track recording I would definitely go for more than one mic to get a more whole amp sound.

    To combine to rigs, like you do now, is kinda the same as I propose. Just without the possibility to tweak on the fly.

    Really overkill to own 4 units :D That’s insane dude :D

  • Why only 2 profiles? Why not 3 or 4...or 7? I don't understand the obsession for more sounds from a unit with almost infinite possibilities. The engineering effort required versus the benefit I think is just not worth it (just my opinion), given there are multiple solutions to your question already.

    I think you are also mixing 2 potential requests here as well. The first is to be able to have 2 mikes on the same sound. You can do this already and many commercial profiles also include this. So its not a limitation of the KPA.

    Running more that 1 profile to blend the 2....not many people do this live, they may run 2 or 3 amps with different sounds and switch, few run multiple maps and blend.

    The possible reasons being:

    1) You are introducing more variables/additional hassle to balance sounds - more gear to worry about

    2) possible phasing issues

    3) Simpler sounds can be more effective...a la Angus young who uses way less gain than people think. This is why sometimes a single guitar can sound fuller than dual if they do not lock together, you get a mushy effect.

    For studio, you can double track. If you want perfect copy, reamp. Part of the reason for double tracking is not just the sound but the very slight differences in the performance so its partially preferable to have 2 performances but both are possible. Neither of these are a limitation of the KPA.

    You can also run like a real amp with 2 mikes, so I'm really not getting this.

  • I don’t think you get my point. It’s not two different request. It’s one request. When combining two sounds it basically does not matter if it’s two complete different setups consisting of different amps, cabs etc or just a different microphone. It’s the same thing the Kemper has to do to create a profile. It’s not two different scenarios. Its exactly the same but with different variables.

    And yes....there is a solution by adding a mixer and thus more mics in front of the Kemper and mix the signal chain there. Really cool......for those who do their own profiles. Like I stated prior, I don’t do that myself. So I don’t have that luxury. I don’t have the luxury of owning amps either. Neither do I have space to do it. So that puts me out of that game entirely.

    And since I’m not the only one using the Kemper like this, we all actually miss out on that part of the Kemper. There is a reason for using more than one mic. That’s also why, like you state yourself, many profiles actually IS done with more than one mic. One mic has the potential to become too one-dimensional. So many of the people, like me, who don’t do profiles themselves would have this great gift of the opportunity of actually doing this ourself. People could then do these profiles with the intention of people merging them at home. That would be awesome. That’s not for you. I get that.

    And live is a whole different game, like I also stated. Did you read my posts at all ;) . So of course that’s not necessarily the best and most ideal solution. But then again....if using a Kemper live you might be able to have a richer sounding guitar. It might be too small a change to notice or it does nothing to the sound as a whole. Who knows?

    But I do think that you are missing the point of what I say.

  • Although I understand what you are hoping to achieve and can see many people having a use for it, the problem with your idea is that it would not be possible to experience the combined sound until after it had been created. This potentially creates the need for a massive ampunt of trial and error to get the right result. With a mixer and multiple mics you can make a change and hear it immediately.

    While combining profiles to create the sound of mixing different cabs and mics etc is a nice idea the Kempe isn’t the best tool to do it. Instead, I would use a basic IR loader and mix them their then export the result into the Kemper. There are plenty of free tools to do this already.

    Ideally you would want something like Two Notes Wall of Sound for manipulating mics and cabs but this outputs the results in Two Notes’ own proprietary format rather than a .wav file which could be imported into the Kemper. I am sure there are other IR tools though that can already do the job and let you hear the effect of making changes instantly rather than introducing massive amounts of guess work in the KPA.

  • No, it will not be possible to hear the result before the combination process has ended. And will take a lot of trial-and-error (which I know and already pointed out in my first post), unless the guys with the knowledge come up with a solution, that is usable. But if you get the choice of “save or cancel”. Then start again to get a new profile. It might sound clumsy, but I can see it working. Even if it takes a lot of trial-and-error it is a pretty easy process. Press cancel to try again. I would rather have the opportunity than not :) . I also know that this feature is not gonna happen ;)