Coincidentally.... I think I'm done with FRFR

  • For most guitar players makes sense to go back to Cabs as most of us have some lying around, it feels better due to the pushed air from the coils, and the vibration transmited in the room from the heavy mass cabinet. But thats what you lose, soundwise is not too different once you get your eq right. I added a Subwoofer to the 2 Headrush FRFR108 set, and the sound is stupidly big and powerful, it reminds me to the time I used a oversized Mesa 4x12 with a friend trough a matrix amp, it was great with merged profiles, but to get the pushing air, the volume had to go beyond my comfortable listening level for a room (Live is another story I guess). So far, my setup gives me the best of both worlds, not the amount of air for a pushed 4x12, but enough to feel the power on my feet, at a lower more comfortable volume.


    That of course is MY ideal setup, as I am not willing to deal with heavyweight cabs and high volume to get a great tone. I have a 2x12 celestion cab which would be a middle ground, but I feel Celestions are not great with all the profiles, I will surely try the Kone, as this would be a awesome proposal to solve my problem of not having a considerable amount of Cabs to mix and match. I guess some people like to match the profile to the CAB they have, but for me is the other way around. So waiting for the kone eagerly.


    Whatever you choose, its great to hear the flame is still going strong, I particularly enjoy sharing these kind of experiences, so tempts me to go back and try new/old things, I have a particularly strong hearing (at my age can hear up to 18kHz which is not common) so I bet my liking will evolve with the years.


    Happy playing :D

  • Thank you for share your experience!

    just a curiosity : FRFR 108 set seem be just push a lot of bass, was needed a subwoofer ? it improved or made sound more confused on bass frequency?



    Enjoy man :P


    Ciao

  • Low end in a woofer that size is mostly due to body resonance, so the low end its accompained with a plasticky upper low range which is a bit unpleasant, and you have no air push but a lot of vibration. Instead a Subwoofer pushes air and Isolates vibration (well, most of them) to create its lowest registers, which give you a richer lower end. Low end is not the strongest characteristic of a guitar reproduction, but a clean and punchy low end in a good sub will give you wonderful results. I dont connect the subw always, but when I do, its trough an small mixer with a frequency crossover to allow the headrush on a tripod do the 150Hz upwards, while the sub reproduces the lower end.


    If you dont use the crossover, it gets a bit muddy, mind you, still sounds good, as FRFR108 drops its dBs below 100Hz Sharply. Its just a bit of tinkering.

  • So having just got a KPA, I first was only playing it through and EVH 212 that I had laying around. I turned off the "CAB" portion on my KPA but even thought profiles were somewhat different they all sounded the same through the same speakers and I really wasn't that pleased until I picked up the FRFR112...so now each profile DOES sound different when you add the cab/mic aspect into the mix. I don't play out with a band anymore so mainly just at home and want to experience all the different kind of amps and cabs out there (hence buying a KPA). The FRFR112 is pretty cool for the price ($275 after a discount) but it's a stop gap for me until the Kemper Kabinet comes out and that'll probably be what I'll use indefinitely.

  • Hi, Ingolf.


    Inspired by your post I pulled out some old gear and I've had a lot of fun over the last 48 hours. This is way more weight than I would take to a show just for monitors. I haven't done an A/B comparison with the FRFR rig yet. But there's a visceral response to playing my guitars with this rig.


    KPA unpowered head - Output - Monitor Cab Off - Monitor Stereo


    -> Mosvalve 500 MV500UserManual.pdf

    -> -> two EV M-12G M-12G EDS.pdf




    The EV cabinets are handy because they were designed as wedge stage monitors. They contain EV M12L loudspeakers


    The three pieces weigh a little over 90 pounds (45 kg).


    I may try a smaller version of this at a gig.

    - Bose A1 PackLite Amp (250 watts RMS into 4 ohms) 3 pounds

    - one EV M-12G

    or

    - Trace Elliot SC112 1x12 cabinet (Celestion G12 Classic Lead 80 16 ohm)

  • Post Script to my post above


    Using the setup above (Profiler Monitor Cab off to MosValve 500 to two EV M-12G) you might think things would sound better if I turn off the Amp section in the profiles.


    I prefer the sound with the Amp section ON.


    That may be because I'm not pushing the amp hard. In my rehearsal space, it's more than loud enough with the GAIN controls at 11:00 o'clock and the PRESENCE at noon.


    ST

  • You mean CAB on vs cab off, right?

  • Hi Ingolf,


    Thanks for your reply.

    You mean CAB on vs cab off, right?


    I'm already running CAB off (because I'm using the two cabinets EV M-12G M-12G EDS.pdf


    &thumbnail=1


    &thumbnail=1


    "By engaging ‘‘Monitor Cab Off’ you can run the PROFILER directly to a power amp driving a physical guitar cabinet on stage, while the MAIN OUTPUT still carry the full signal, including the virtual speaker, which would be connected to the front mixing desk."


    The point about turning off the Amp section - I wondered if I *should* turn off the Amp section since I'm running through the MosValve 500 power amp because it's not a FRFR amp.





    I can do that for individual profiles.


    Is there a universal setting in the Output Section (Monitor) that disables the Amp

  • Got it. But turning off the amp would actually defeat the purpose of the Profiler completely.

    I'd never turn it off.

  • Ingolf I am surprised but pleased in what you have said. In the early days I followed your posts and I think it was you that got me to make the move from cabs to FRFR 4 or 5 years ago. Does this mean I've now got to change again? JOKING! :)


    I was using a guitar cab for the first 18 months, miked up. When I moved to FRFR it was so different and I realised how much "smoothing out" a cab gave. For me it became more alive and open and made me feel like the cabs were the compromise.


    There is no doubt its a different sound but to be honest I still prefer FRFR. Never had issues with musical feedback, I use it all the time. I find a better spread of sound and its more "complete". I never found direct or merged profiles helped with the cab BUT glad you've found that missing element.


    However, having said all of that, still going to get a Kabinet :)


    Nice one dude!

  • Thank you.
    Don’t take what I write as absolutes, I'm only writing down what I feel is an evolution in my musical journey. :)

    That said I think I'm not the only one who’s in that boat.

  • Thank you.
    Don’t take what I write as absolutes, I'm only writing down what I feel is an evolution in my musical journey. :)

    That said I think I'm not the only one who’s in that boat.

    I have been using my Mesa Road King 412 since I started with Powered Kemper. To me it's the best when ran into a cab. I tried using the FRFR route but wasn't as satisfying. I still have a Headrush 108 for monitoring here and there but my Kemper into a cab for rehearsals and playing out moves me.

  • I personally have been done with FRFR for live monitoring now for a couple of years for the most part (although I use IEM’s - does that count?). Migrated from Atomic CLR’s on stage, which are VERY good, but just didn’t seem/feel right to me. In addition, we are by no means a silent stage when we play live, and I was concerned for those members of the crowd that are mobbing the front of the stage, immersed in stage wash more so than FOH regarding what they hear, have as authentic experience as possible, which to me is a guitar cab.


    I have been using a traditional guitar cab onstage now for a couple of years - coupled with my unpowered KPA rack and a matrix power amp. Mon out from KPA to matrix in has cab sims off. Sounds and feels right to me.


    For smaller gigs, I am LOVING the profiler stage and the ValveTrain PowerTrain 50 combination on stage. Super easy load in/out. For this rig I am keeping my cab sims on per Britt and HW recs. I have tried this both ways and like the cab sims on better with this PowerTrain. I have the regular 50, not the Britt model.


    In both setups I of course keep cab sims on the main out to FOH.


    I plan to get the Kabinet as soon as it is released just to try it out.


    I still own the CLR’s and use them for evaluating new profiles before using them live.

  • I plan on getting a couple of Kone's and replacing my V-30's in a home-brew cab of mine.

    And powering them with an SLA-2.


    That "may" be a turning point sound-wise for me- we shall see.

    If you use FRFR the benefit of a merged profile is that the cabinet is totally separated in the profile.


    For my edification only... :D Kemper/Helix user

  • I've been back and forth between solutions but have landed on a Bluamps Spark. It works for home practise, on stage, and even for gigs that rely heavily on backline-audio with only a small PA for vocals. Yet, when playing gigs focused on a single style of music I still prefer the appropriate tube-amp and pedal-board.

  • I gigged on Friday last week and ran my little 1x12 unpowered FRFR...I still love it. It does feel different to a regular cab in that there is better spread and clearer dynamics.


    At the moment I don;t miss anything from a cab, but perhaps I need to back and try :)


    Its great we have the choice and another choice is on the way!

  • I gigged on Friday last week and ran my little 1x12 unpowered FRFR...I still love it. It does feel different to a regular cab in that there is better spread and clearer dynamics.


    At the moment I don;t miss anything from a cab, but perhaps I need to back and try :)


    Its great we have the choice and another choice is on the way!

    What a cab does is that it works as a filter, you are forcing sound reproduction through a filter, squeezing some sound on it (composed of the cone, body and front face plus any material attached to the cab), the filtered bits get dissipated on the body of the cab that acts as a dampner, and reflected on the front mesh, thats why the presence of the cab is so different, it is not an optimal system, the reproduction is done in a very inefficient way. That is because of the limitations on past times to reproduce high amounts of sound for presentations shaped the way old amps were designed without concerning too much on the high end reproduction (take the cab section in your kemper and you will note how you arrive to fizzy town). Those vibrations are also felt trough the air pushed from the cones, transporting the sound in a directional manner.


    On the other hand, the FRFR intend to reproduce only the sound part, as the physical air and vibrations cannot be transmitted on the same way as a cab, as an FRFR is tought to have high volume with few components, that do not filter or shape the sound, therefore, no too much energy dissipation, and few air pushing (No, sound travels through air, not on it), so even with a digital cab simulation (ala powercab Line 6), you will never get that.


    Its all a game of compromises. I do enjoy the nice dynamics of FRFRs, and do not miss the high volumes for the cab to get the sweetspot and "the feel". To each their own. I am trying to get the matrix of my frien to experiment, I am making a semi FRFR with an attenuator to try to push some air in my custom made cab. Not gonna get a nice sound for sure, but I will be able to experiment on this topic, specially when I would be able to get the kones