Full profiling

  • Interesting answer! What you describe would be comparable to doing "motion picture". If you need to picture every frame to create the video, then yes it will take ages to make. But maybe there could be a way to profile more like a video camera?

    but I’m fairly sure even a video camera still works on the same principle of frames per second so there is no difference in the analogy.

  • In my personal opinion this would only make sense for direct profiles without the additional interaction from the speaker or microphone.

    this is the critical point to grasp!


    as the speaker and mic very often make a SIGNIFICANTLY greater effect on the overall sound than the amp itself any attempt at FULL PROFILING wound need to have a way to also capture moving the mic around and changing mic etc. Without that a FULL PROFILING option isn’t really worth the effort anyway.

  • Gain, Bass, Mid & Treble. If each go to 1-10, then there are 9999 combinations at exact numerical positions. When Profiling, those bleeps and wooshes produced are required to ensure the profile responds accurately to the guitar and how it is played; changing controls would lengthen the capture process as it would need to do the whole process at each setting to be authentic. Not only would it take a lot longer but the profile files would be bigger and need more RAM and processing.


    This has been for asked many times before.

  • Than you would have to move multiple knobs on the amp at the same time and tell the Kemper at the same time what it actually measures. I would go a complete different way and let the device learn how the amp reacts. Let it learn if there is any interaction between the EQ curves and if how big the interaction is. In some cases you can get away with not so many measurements and calculate the rest by yourself and in some cases you need more information. Speech recognition is a bit similar and got it's quality from training the algorithm.

    You seem quite knowledgeable about how the Kemper works. I don't know exactly how it works, but obviously, what I was talking about would need a different way to profile than the current one: Instant and real time profiling (or almost). I don't know if this will ever be possible but I'd like to think that someday will be. Look at how the computers have evolved in no time: Even an average smartphone of today is way more powerful than the computers we had 20 years ago... And the KPA is about 8 years old already.


    About the data storage: I have to admit I am puzzled. If the KPA can store no more than 1k profiles, it means it has no more than 6 or 7 Mo of internal memory. Let's say double for the effects, so 15 to 20Mo. That's nothing! With today's possibilities, I don't see how the storage would be a problem.

  • this is the critical point to grasp!


    as the speaker and mic very often make a SIGNIFICANTLY greater effect on the overall sound than the amp itself any attempt at FULL PROFILING wound need to have a way to also capture moving the mic around and changing mic etc. Without that a FULL PROFILING option isn’t really worth the effort anyway.

    I really suggest to give the "mikko" software from ML Soundlab a try, it's an awesome piece of software and does exactly this. Switching and combining microphones on a virtual speaker by moving the mic around. You can export the result as an IR. You can create profiles with it if you have an amp and a loadbox, I've also tried some fun profiles where I mixed one of my cabs with 2 microphones together with a different cabinet from the software (phase is here the critical point but it is doable)

    I don't know if this will ever be possible but I'd like to think that someday will be. Look at how the computers have evolved in no time: Even an average smartphone of today is way more powerful than the computers we had 20 years ago... And the KPA is about 8 years old already.

    Actually there was no need for more processing power but the Kemper has some limitations by it's design and perhaps you would need more power for an upgrade like to have multiple profiles or doubled FX slots and so on. But for the actual task it seems to be enough and the market is still there for the Kemper. I really like, that the Kemper is a product with a digital heart with the same value after 8 years you don't see this often. :) but that's a different discussion.

    About the data storage: I have to admit I am puzzled. If the KPA can store no more than 1k profiles, it means it has no more than 6 or 7 Mo of internal memory. Let's say double for the effects, so 15 to 20Mo. That's nothing! With today's possibilities, I don't see how the storage would be a problem.

    I've read or heard the 1k somewhere, I could be wrong and can't give you the ressource of the information right now. Never tried it out by myself, I already have to many profiles on my Kemper :D

  • Gain, Bass, Mid & Treble. If each go to 1-10, then there are 9999 combinations at exact numerical positions. When Profiling, those bleeps and wooshes produced are required to ensure the profile responds accurately to the guitar and how it is played; changing controls would lengthen the capture process as it would need to do the whole process at each setting to be authentic. Not only would it take a lot longer but the profile files would be bigger and need more RAM and processing.


    This has been for asked many times before.

    and it increases exponentially if you also have a presence knob 😬

  • I really suggest to give the "mikko" software from ML Soundlab a try, it's an awesome piece of software and does exactly this. Switching and combining microphones on a virtual speaker by moving the mic around. You can export the result as an IR. You can create profiles with it if you have an amp and a loadbox, I've also tried some fun profiles where I mixed one of my cabs with 2 microphones together with a different cabinet from the software (phase is here the critical point but it is doable)

    Thanks. I haven’t tried that but do have Two Notes Wall of Sound which also does the same thing.

  • I don't know exactly how it works, but obviously, what I was talking about would need a different way to profile than the current one: Instant and real time profiling (or almost). I don't know if this will ever be possible but I'd like to think that someday will be. Look at how the computers have evolved in no time: Even an average smartphone of today is way more powerful than the computers we had 20 years ago... And the KPA is about 8 years old already.


    i have no doubt that the current profiling technology can’t do what you are requesting as it was never designed with this in mind. The limitation isn’t processing power itself but the way profiling works. However, as you point out computer processing power has increased massively over time. Modelling software design has also developed significantly in that time. I am pretty sure that the way to achieve what you are looking for is with a component level modelling like Fractal or Line6. Some hink they are already as good as Kemper while others think the Kemper still has the edge. Regardless of the current state of affairs I am confident that modelling technology and computing power will advance to catch up with Profiling in term of realism long before a profiling process is ever developed that allows the sort of “full profiling “ you describe.


    the single unique selling point of the Kemper is the ability to accurately capture a snapshot of your own amp and cabinet exactly the way you like it then use it consistently without the weight and reliability/consistency issues of valves. Nothing else can do that like the Kemper just now. I don’t think Kemper will go down the road of reinventing the wheel to achieve modelling via a different process but I’ve been wrong before 😉

  • i have no doubt that the current profiling technology can’t do what you are requesting as it was never designed with this in mind. The limitation isn’t processing power itself but the way profiling works. However, as you point out computer processing power has increased massively over time. Modelling software design has also developed significantly in that time. I am pretty sure that the way to achieve what you are looking for is with a component level modelling like Fractal or Line6. Some hink they are already as good as Kemper while others think the Kemper still has the edge. Regardless of the current state of affairs I am confident that modelling technology and computing power will advance to catch up with Profiling in term of realism long before a profiling process is ever developed that allows the sort of “full profiling “ you describe.


    the single unique selling point of the Kemper is the ability to accurately capture a snapshot of your own amp and cabinet exactly the way you like it then use it consistently without the weight and reliability/consistency issues of valves. Nothing else can do that like the Kemper just now. I don’t think Kemper will go down the road of reinventing the wheel to achieve modelling via a different process but I’ve been wrong before 😉

    You make a good point.

    It's probably just my frustration talking.

    When I bought my KPA, I was confident that when a seller would create a profile pack for an amp, he would profile all kind of different EQs for each amp to give a wide choice to the users. But I was wrong.

    Look at choptones or Cililabs data sheets: All the profiles they make are mid scooped and/or have tons of bass.

    That's exactly what I wouldn't do.

    Maybe I should have bought an Axe FX :/

  • both the Axe and Kemper are fantastic units. Just different philosophies. Neither is necessarily better or worse, just different and suited to different workflows. I deliberately didn’t go Fractal or Line6 because, although the sounded amazing with the right tweaking, i wanted simple plug an play an the ability to profile my own amps. I don’t regret the decision at all. Howver, if i wanted to tweak to the max and wanted multiple signal paths etc I would probaly have ben happier with one of the others x horse for courses as they say 😃

  • I think profiling every possible combination of settings on an amp would be way too much work.


    What I would like to see Kemper do is sort of a hybrid profiling/modeling thing; profile the amp and its distortion characteristics at all volume settings, but model the EQ at the component level like other modelers do.


    The KPA is amazing, but one of the main things it is lacking is accurate EQ stacks.

  • Bommel : I have actually already tried most of your profiles. They are among the bests imo! I may actually chose one of them for my studio tone. So thank you so much for giving all of these profiles for free! It's greatly appreciated.Btw: I tend to think more and more that "everything at noon" is the best setting for an amp :) Maybe slight adjustments here and there but if you dont like the sound of the amp with everything at noon, then the amp is not for you.

    Hey thanks so much man, i am really glad you like them. :) I just like to add that the cab choice is ultra important, bassier speakers like the g12k 100 maybe need less lows than other speakers or cabs. But i know what you mean, an Amp should sound great when you turn it on and the eq should only be there to make it fit more to your guitar and cab. But there are many factors why this is sometimes not possible. Imagine you singlecoil pickups have a honky spot at 800Hz now you try to remove it with you EQ but the mids knob on the amp is set at 500hz ... That is why i always wish all amps had two full parametric bands lows and highs that would really make amps so much versatile and simply better sounding. Right now i have a multiband compressor on my pedal board and in recording situations a full parametric 10-band rack eq in the effectsloop. I say this because this also works great for the kemper, a eq pedal or multiband EQ in front of the kemper can work wonders and can give you back much versitality. The same profile will behave differently if you hit is with more 120hz (that works great) or with more 300 -500 hz and also with a more compressed signal.

  • Gain, Bass, Mid & Treble. If each go to 1-10, then there are 9999 combinations at exact numerical positions. When Profiling, those bleeps and wooshes produced are required to ensure the profile responds accurately to the guitar and how it is played; changing controls would lengthen the capture process as it would need to do the whole process at each setting to be authentic. Not only would it take a lot longer but the profile files would be bigger and need more RAM and processing.


    This has been for asked many times before.

    Right-on, chu.


    "Video-style", multi-frame/sec snapshots wouldn't capture the dynamic responses of each setting, and that's where the magic lies.

    Instant and real time profiling (or almost). I don't know if this will ever be possible but I'd like to think that someday will be. Look at how the computers have evolved in no time: Even an average smartphone of today is way more powerful than the computers we had 20 years ago... And the KPA is about 8 years old already.

    Other than software's taking intelligent guesses, IMHO advances in technology cannot remove the need to capture dynamic behaviour at all audible frequencies, which AFAIK is what the Kemper's Profiling process does.


    In this case, instant coffee isn't possible. Well, it is, but all the flavour (dynamic behaviour) would be missing.

  • Gain, Bass, Mid & Treble. If each go to 1-10, then there are 9999 combinations at exact numerical positions.

    I think the most important thing is Gain and Mastervolume each on 3 relevant positions clean right before saturation sets in, right before full distortion sets in and max gain doing this on gain mastervolume means 9 profiles with the most important settings. EQ is a thing that is okay to go at noon and a setting that fits to your cab and guitar. Sure a amp will react differently when you feed it with more or less bass but i think this is well covered with the 9 settings. It is possible to fake the other effekts then with external or internal settings/pedals. This is at least my opinion and i am pretty happy with the profiles i did that way.

  • EQ is a thing that is okay to go at noon and a setting that fits to your cab and guitar.

    FWIW, 'noon' doesn't really mean anything, since depending on what kind of tone stack the amp manufacturer is using it can have all kinds of different effects on the sound.
    Duncan's Tone Stack Calculator demonstrates this very well. http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/


    But your Profiles are indeed great, I'm not complaining ;)

  • FWIW, 'noon' doesn't really mean anything, since depending on what kind of tone stack the amp manufacturer is using it can have all kinds of different effects on the sound.
    Duncan's Tone Stack Calculator demonstrates this very well. http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/


    But your Profiles are indeed great, I'm not complaining ;)

    Yeah i know, you're right! Noon does not mean "linear"...

    The "noon" position was for me just a way to add a profile that is not colored by my taste or cab choice. Do you know what i mean? If i do D.I. profiles i tweak the amp to sound good on my Cab/IR and with my playing and guitar. To have a "blank canvas" i thought putting everything on noon could be an option.


    But i am open for recommendations! I know the "noon" idea is flawed but seemed to be the only way to add a "common starting point" because noon is often just like that for amp builders, a starting point. For example, while the Graphs look pretty extreme on the tone stack calculator, if you measure the amp output without a cab, harmonics and masking in general will smooth that out. I added the picture of one of my "noon" profiles, of the Hughes and Kettner Grandmeister to be exact.


    It would be ultra cool if the EQ section of the kemper not only had "pre" or "post" but also the tonestacks or parametric modes imo.

  • I hope this .gif works. I shows the Noon and the tweaked version of this amp profile without a cab