Preamp-Only Profiling: Poor results

  • Hey folks. New almost-satisfied Kemper owner here! I've spent a few hours now profiling and refining a Mesa Quad Preamp again and again and the results are not good. The profile is flat, dull and is nowhere near as tight or detailed/3d sounding as the Quad. Before getting the Kemper I experimented "profiling" the Quad using amp sims and Ozone's Match EQ and honestly, the Kemper is no better.


    It's disappointing because I've been unable to tell the difference between many real and profiled FULL rigs, the Kemper absolutely nails those setups but it's way off the mark with preamp only. I want to keep the unit because as I say it's great at profiling a full setup but I do a lot of recordings using real amps with cab impulses so this is a big issue for me. Any suggestions? I've tried refining for short and long periods and not refining at all. Can't think of what else I can do ?(

  • I've found the following things are critical.


    1) You want the input gain/return volume to be at 0.0 on the Kemper, futzing with this or other settings to anythign other than noon seems to result in poorer profiles. SO just adjust gain outside of the unit.


    2) How are you playing this back? If it's through a mesa amp FX loop you may have issues as they run in parallel with a blend unlike most other FX send/returns on amps, which means you always have the original sound coming through too to a certian extent (minimum 10% of the signal I believe). Also how are you recording to compare the signals?


    3) Two short sessions followed by a long, as in at least 10 minutes refining session seems to do it for me.


    4) Remember that more volume at the amp end is always better when it comes to noise floor, but compromises dynamics as it begins to add compression, balancing this is a must.


    5) Sometimes you have to give up on the first profile you do and just move on and start profiling all over again, I'm not sure why this is (maybe a bug in the KPA), but the first time can sometimes just muck up, the subsequent profile you make by simply pressing the new profile button rather than switching the chickenhead switch back and forth from profiling mode (important that you don't do this) will be much closer. However I only do that the once, if the second profile fails then I just continue refining.


    6) What you play during refining matters. If you have large gaps of silence then it will adversely affect the profile, so play solidly. Play a range of things, chug chords, palm mutes, open chords all over the neck, lead lines etc. Just playing one thing has never worked for me, play both light and heavy rather than all just hammering the guitar in a frenzied attempt to break the strings, unless your aim is purely to record a cover of helter skelter of course.


    7) Even though this is DI, it's still worth making sure to record the signals direct into a DAW and ideally do a reamp of a dry guitar signal that you record to compare both the KPA and the original amp using the switch on the KPA as otherwise listening through speakers with both going and while you can hear your guitar strumming too will never give you a clear picture.


    8 ) The result from a DI will have it's own cabinet which is a part of that sound. Disabling it will give you what the KPA thinks the preamp on it's own sounds like (the cab seems to represent power amp and cab), but often that's not necesary. Don't disable or replace if your'e going through the same setup as the pre-amp was originally.


    Anyhow, I hope some of that helps.

  • Thanks Per! I was actually just coming back on to say I've managed to get it pretty much spot on now. Your point about what you play during refining making all the difference is absolutely true as that's the only thing I changed. This time I played EXTREMELY hard power chords constantly without allowing any silence whatsoever. In fact I even pressed the finish button with my left hand while I was still picking with my right. The new profile isn't completely indistinguishable from the preamp but I'd put it at 95% and that's more than good enough for me, the earlier results were only about 75% of the way there. I'm loving this unit now! :thumbup:

  • I guess the Kemper somehow showed me the reference amp as the profiled amp (a bug?) because revisiting the saved profile again today it's at the 75% I heard before. I've since spent another 2 hours re-profiling and I just can't improve on it no matter how long I refine or what I play. It sounds pretty much exactly how my amp sim + ozone match eq profile did. With the Quad the notes sound glued and held together, rounded and smooth, the Kemper profile's mids are fizzy and *shroud* the notes, it doesn't come close enough to the tight ball of sound the Quad throws out. This isn't an issue with my preamp either as I've also tried profiling my Engl Fireball with similar results. I'm looking for reasons not to return it but it's looking like I'll have to, I bought it for recording purposes only and it's just not delivering the goods. It's a shame cause it's a cool unit and the full rigs are fun to play with but for what I'm using it for it's essentially Ozone's match eq in a box.

  • I could have sworn that That preamp was one of the few that Kemper said did not profile correctly. I can report my Black13 preamp pedal does not profile correctly too, sounds like the input signal was overloading.. or maybe not, same kind of rounded off tone you speak of.


    Oh well, my preamp pedal is not that good so no problem for me.


    You might want to try putting a gain reducer /fader either before or after the preamp, might be overloading problem.

  • I guess the Kemper somehow showed me the reference amp as the profiled amp (a bug?) because revisiting the saved profile again today it's at the 75% I heard before. I've since spent another 2 hours re-profiling and I just can't improve on it no matter how long I refine or what I play. It sounds pretty much exactly how my amp sim + ozone match eq profile did. With the Quad the notes sound glued and held together, rounded and smooth, the Kemper profile's mids are fizzy and *shroud* the notes, it doesn't come close enough to the tight ball of sound the Quad throws out. This isn't an issue with my preamp either as I've also tried profiling my Engl Fireball with similar results. I'm looking for reasons not to return it but it's looking like I'll have to, I bought it for recording purposes only and it's just not delivering the goods. It's a shame cause it's a cool unit and the full rigs are fun to play with but for what I'm using it for it's essentially Ozone's match eq in a box.


    What firmware version are you on?


    Have you made profiles with cabinet using the same amps?
    Did it work?


    How do you listen to the A/B?
    Thru the Monitor output?

    Edited once, last by ckemper ().

  • I've profiled the preamp only, no cab or power amp. I'll be able to profile the entire rig shortly (Mesa Quad Preamp, 50/50 Power Amp & Mesa 4x12 Cab). I've done comparisons switching between the profiled and reference amp while playing live using the headphones out of the Kemper and also recording the results using the master out to my audio interface. I'm thinking I should get good results profiling the entire rig since as I've said before I've been unable to tell the difference on some comparison clips but after extensive profiling of only the preamp there's a pretty substantial difference.

  • Profiling just a distorted pre amp produces some very nasty ass upper end harmonics that are not listenable.
    I wounder if the Kemper is not tuned to profile them.
    You normally would never want it in your signal.
    A better approach would be to profile you pre amp with some sort of cabinet simulation on and then remove the Kemper cabinet after the profile is done.

  • Profiling just a distorted pre amp produces some very nasty ass upper end harmonics that are not listenable.
    I wounder if the Kemper is not tuned to profile them.
    You normally would never want it in your signal.
    A better approach would be to profile you pre amp with some sort of cabinet simulation on and then remove the Kemper cabinet after the profile is done.

    This would work, if there's a guarantee that nothing else but the "Cab sim" is taken out, when removing the cabinet on Kemper.


    Mr. Kemper, would you recommended the above method over using the preamp's actual send output?


    Jake

  • Well I've just got done profiling the full rig and the results have been OUTSTANDING. :thumbup:
    I'm definitely keeping the unit as it's just amazing at nailing full setups.


    Preamp-only produces an abundance of frequencies across the entire range so maybe as Bill put it the Kemper isn't tuned or designed to handle the full spectrum?

  • Well I've just got done profiling the full rig and the results have been OUTSTANDING. :thumbup:
    I'm definitely keeping the unit as it's just amazing at nailing full setups.


    Preamp-only produces an abundance of frequencies across the entire range so maybe as Bill put it the Kemper isn't tuned or designed to handle the full spectrum?


    No.
    Many users have made perfect preamp profiles.
    Let me ask you again what firmware version you are on.

  • My experience profiling preamps differs, and I'm satisfied from the results. Actually is what I've done first ,when I switched on my KPA for the first time.


    (this is what I have posted to a related thread to the Fractals' forum,when Kempers' forum didn't exist yet):


    -I have profiled a VHT(Fryette) Super 30 combo, but just only the premp,no power amp,no speaker.
    Then I connected via a good loop box to the return of the combo, the original preamp and the profiled preamp, and switch between them, so they have the same chance to be heard, from the same power amp & same cab-speaker.
    The result is incredible, the profiled preamp sounds and feels
    almost like the original, if I can speak % could be 95% & more.(not
    100%)
    The original was just a little bit more "alive" but just a little bit, to my ears.



    From then, I have done more than 35 preamp profiles that I use them live, with a real power amp & cab and I'm happy with them.
    I don't know how can I help you, I think Kemper team can help, I hope you will find soon a solution that gives great results for you.