Leveling Rigs to the same Loudness: Why to adjust Amp Volume and Not Rig Volume?

  • In the last few days I've spent some time to set all the profiiles to the same loudness level but I do not understand one thing:


    I was reading the manual, when it talks about the Amplifier (AMP module), explaining 'Volume' parameter it says:

    This parameter can be used to balance volume gaps between different PROFILEs. The Rig named “Crunch”, which is default in all Slots in Performance Mode, could be used as a volume reference.



    And when it talks about Rig Settings, explainig the 'Rig Volume' parameter it also says:

    Use this parameter to adjust the level of each Rig to suit a song in a set list, we don’t recommend using it to balance the levels between all the Rigs.

    and just a few lines after that:

    If you feel that any of the Rigs sound particularly loud or soft,...

    ...adjust the “Volume” parameter, found in the amplifier module, until the Rig sounds at the correct level.

    Honestly I don't undersand Why it's not reccomended to Adjust the Rig Volume with the Rig Volume knob.

  • indeed. Quite possibly THE most recorded guitarist in history. His approach just getting the job done in that video was totally inspiring.

    Thx for the Tommy T post! I just watched the Wrecking Crew video on YT but hadn't seen the one you linked. I worked at a music store when I was in my 20's and Tommy gave a clinic. I tried sight reading a piece he put up and I faked it ok. Then he REALLY faked it. Kinda read what was there but added a bunch of good tasty guitaristic things. He was the master!


    Back on topic, I wish there was VU/Peak meter page somewhere in the Kemper so you can get a visual to help balance the rig volumes.

    Better yet I wish there was a function like in NI's Guitar Rig where you just play and it sets the correct in and out levels. Something as advanced as the Kemper should do this too. I spend a lot of time adjusting volumes especially when recording and use the Klanghelm VU meter in Logic to help.

    I highly recommend that plugin or Hornet VU so you can see what you're really getting.

    These profiles go to 11!

  • Thanks for the answers Guys! really appreciated.


    Yes, I have used a plugin (Ozone) to adjust My Rigs to the reference CK Crunch Rig.

    ..and Yes, me too, I did it ''the wrong way'' just because it's faster.


    I've initially locked every Rig with the same cab and Without any effect,

    I can't see (or hear) any differences useing the Amp or the Rig Volume.


    that's why I wonder why the manual recommends to use Amp Volume.

  • They’re exactly the same. You can think of Amp volume as the trim pot on a console, and the Rig volume as the fader. With all the Amp volumes set for a balance between Rigs and the Rig volume at 12 o’clock (unity gain on a fader on a console), you can then use the Rig volume for any quick tweaks with maximum flexibility (on a console, use the fader for minor adjustments with the best s/n ratio). If you used Rig volume and you had a Rig at max volume, but then in the heat of the battle needed to bump it a bit more, you’d have nowhere to go without going into the Amplifier menu and fiddling, when you could’ve just turned the knob on the front of the unit.

  • How does this fit into your thinking about leveling rig volumes?

    Quote

    How to optimize volumes?

    Rig Volume (bottom row left) is made for adjusting relative volume differences between Rigs for your performance. In general it should be placed on or around the middle position (unity volume). If you do that, you should rarely see a red OUTPUT LED.

    We have put weeks of work into the PROFILER™ for creating a constant volume situation. One aspect of this is that the volume is automatically fine-tuned during the PROFILING™ process. But this cannot be done 100% perfectly, because a perceived volume is not necessarily equal to a measured energy. The sound (here the frequency spectrum) of your guitar will also have an impact on the perceived volume. A Strat single coil will deliver totally different results compared to a humbucker on a 7-string guitar. This cannot be anticipated or calculated. Last but not least, the most important: The output volume of your guitar. The levels of various guitars could differ by more than 20 dB. That's a lot! Clean sounds fully depend on the volume of your guitar (unless you use a compressor) while high gain sounds are mostly constant due to the compression aspect of the distortion. This is why it's mandatory to "tell" the PROFILER about the volume of your guitar by adjusting the Clean Sens parameter in the INPUT section. Please read the respective chapter in the manual or view the tutorial video about the INPUT section. If you set the Clean Sens parameter correctly for your guitar, so that clean an distorted sounds have the same energy for your ears, you will have the perfect setting for your guitar: - only minor volume differences between different Rigs - no red LED on input nor output. The PROFILER performs automatic leveling during the PROFILING process. This can later be modified by you with the target guitar, your ears and a simple tweak of a knob.


    Source: https://www.kemper-amps.com/faqs
  • it is spot on.


    i rarely need to tweak by much but my clean sense is usually locked around -7db.


    the thing that really annoys me is trying to audition rigs where the profiler has raised the amp volume after profiling then saved it that way. This happens with some commercial profilers but is more common on Rig Exchange. We generally hear louder as “better” so people tweak their profiles to sound “better”. However, this also makes them sit less well with other profiles which haven’t been pushed. Using RE can sometimes feel like the mastering loudness wars.

  • About the output volumes of different guitars, and the possibility to adjust Clean and Distorted sense, I normally use to leave them at 0.. just because I have many Les Paul, and I like to NOT adjust the amp. I like to Keep the little differences in output and tone between eachother, useing the same sound, not tweaking anyting.

    But (according to my wife) they're all the same guitar, and basically it's true.

    Sometimes I see the input Led turnig red, just for a moment so it's ok like this to me.

    Of course I've saved a specific Input Section called 'Telecaster' to adjust a bit the clean sense when I rarely use it.


    About the automatically fine-tuned during the PROFILING™ process I think it's ok and it works fine.

    Leveling My own Profiles, I didn't have to tweak so much, they already were more or less at the same level.


    Completely agree with Alan: This happens with some commercial profilers but is more common on Rig Exchange. We generally hear louder as “better” so people tweak their profiles to sound “better”. However, this also makes them sit less well with other profiles which haven’t been pushed. Using RE can sometimes feel like the mastering loudness wars.

    I guess there's a War outhere, and actually the Initial Idea to spend some time to adjust all Rig's Levels Started exactly beacuse My Profiles were not as good (Loud) as the other's ones.

    I quickly discoverd why.


    sambrox I got You. pretty clear.

    In my mind, I figured out the Amp Volume as a Linear master volume of a Clean Amp and the Rig Volume as the gain/the trim pot on a console.

    Anyway

    actually in the Kemper, the Amp volume it's the last Volume Before Fx section (maybe it intercats a bit on thier behaviour) and the Rig Volume it's the last Volume before the Output section.

  • I would never want to adjust anything other than Rig Volume unless I had a specific reason to do so. Any Amp Volume adjustment could have an effect on anything downstream, starting with the natural compression in the cabinet. Ultimately, that changes tone.


    Another issue are the effects. If we adjust the amp output enough, in theory at least, could we also run into danger of taking an effect out of it's input level sweet spot? If these were real hardware at our feet, it would be a possibility. It can and does happen with ease inside of a DAW.


    I'm going to approach the question of volume/loudness leveling in a similar manner to how I would use reference tracks in a DAW. One dirty, one clean. Ultimately, these levels will be relative to my desired tracking signal strength inside my DAW. Many factors in play and yet to be ironed out, but doing this will allow me to get close to volumes/loudness when not at my DAW.

  • Another issue are the effects. If we adjust the amp output enough, in theory at least, could we also run into danger of taking an effect out of it's input level sweet spot? If these were real hardware at our feet, it would be a possibility. It can and does happen with ease inside of a DAW.

    I wouldn’t think so with most modern DAWs. My old studio neighbour Holger Lagerfeldt did some exhaustive tests using Logic that showed that as long as you brought the level down before it hit the D/A stage, there was absolutely no adverse effects. DAWs have been using 32-Bit floating point calculations internally for getting on for a couple of decades now, and it is impossible to clip, though a badly coded plugin could potentially cause issues (I’m thinking of EQs and boosting levels close to Nyquist, though really those problems should be things of the past).


    Sorry to jump in, but there are many urban legends in the audio world that ought to be put to rest :)

  • I use the rig volume. I did run into a headroom issue a few years ago where there was some audible clipping occurring. It turned out that one of the effects blocks after the amp had its level a little bit high (set by the profile creator). With that brought down to zero, I've not had any issues.



    Due to how I initially set the device up with a particular profile that I liked (which was already quite loud) I tend to find all standard profiles a bit quiet and have to bring them up to balance the ones I have in my Performances. I could get round to reducing the level of all of my favourites but I have better things to do!

  • I wouldn’t think so with most modern DAWs. My old studio neighbour Holger Lagerfeldt did some exhaustive tests using Logic that showed that as long as you brought the level down before it hit the D/A stage, there was absolutely no adverse effects. DAWs have been using 32-Bit floating point calculations internally for getting on for a couple of decades now, and it is impossible to clip, though a badly coded plugin could potentially cause issues (I’m thinking of EQs and boosting levels close to Nyquist, though really those problems should be things of the past).


    Sorry to jump in, but there are many urban legends in the audio world that ought to be put to rest :)

    Jump in all you want, but I was not talking at all about clipping. Sweet spots and clipping are a long, long, long way apart. I was referring to differences between where a plugin has been modeled to mimic hardware to be at it's sweetest point at or around -18dbfs to -20dbfs in many DAWs including Pro Tools. The part I didn't know was if the modeled or profiled effects behaved as the plugins by folks like Universal Audio and Brainworx. I'll RTM before I ramble next time about how the levels within Kemper compare, but it's still all valid.


    No legends. No clipping, either. A non-issue unless you really try, as you suggested.


    Links below have the UAD plugin to plugin operating level charts (which changes my use of the Studor as I thought it was lower). Also included an old thread I used to reference a lot, despite having to weed through information. One I found a couple months ago has some pretty good information on gain staging, though very outdated methods using the trim plugin. The last one ties back into this thread and my point, which is to establish the needed end goal for the usage scenario and backwards engineer my rigs to make sure I am feeding good levels into my DAW.


    https://uadforum.com/general-d…ing-chart.html#post257263

    Discussion on Pro Tools Levels

    PureMix Gain Staging Articles

  • Ahh I reread your original post and now see what you meant. Valid points :)