Really need help with setting up my rig for rehearsals and live gigs

  • So first of all I'm not sure if this is the right sub to post this. It is a combination of "issue" and "other hardware" and "which profiles" so I hope this is ok.

    So my situation is the following. Yesterday I had my first rehearsal with my new project. I went there pretty confident with my Kemper and left extremely

    disappointed. I heavily suspect user error on my part. The thing is I haven't rehearsed or played gigs in 4 years so I'm kinda out of the loop in terms of sound and

    loudness. I was very pleased at home with what I had but as soon as I cranked the volume things started to fall apart. Yesterday evening I though about just letting my

    Kemper stay at home and invest in a new tube amp to do what I want. But then I though that is kinda dumb. Not only are there a bunch of features that I could hardly recreate

    with analog gear, also so many people are using the Kemper live. So as I said, I suspect the problem lies on my part.


    What we are playing is Heavy Rock and Metal. D is our standard tuning. We are doing Pop-Metal covers. Like Victorys "I'm so excited", or Jaded Hearts "Larger than life" or Mystic Prophecys "Shadow on the wall". So that is what I'm looking for. Not the typical Metallica metal sound, more of a modernised midrangy 80s hard rock tone.


    My gear for yesterday was the following:

    - Kemper Profiling head (white) + Remote (Software 7.2.2.16146)

    - Camplifier Studio

    - Harley Benton G112 --> Which I have equipped with a KEMPER Kone.


    Loudness was not an issue, which honestly surprised me. I thought the Camplifier would have trouble keeping up but in terms of volume I still had headroom. And we even agreed that we wouldn't rehearse as loud as yesterday in the future (kinda did it because it was awesome after such a long time ^^).

    I tried quite a lot of different profiles. Some of the stock ones (like Tills dual amps), Tone Junkies Mesa, some profiles I did out of my Helix. And at some point they all sounded the same to me. What really shocked me was that I didn't like the KEMPER Kone AT ALL in that situation. As soon as I disengaged it and just used it as FRFR it became more bearable but still far from great. It all sounded very harsh very fizzy.

    The guitars can be overlooked in this case, we tried a bunch, some from the other guitarist as well. Of course there were differences but none of them solved the main issue.

    One thing that can be noted is that I use the transpose feature of the Kemper to detune my guitar from standard to D.


    Our other guitarist is using a Maxon RTD800 into a George Dennis Mighty Mouse 30 (EDIT: with the matching 1x12 cabinet) for reference. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges BUT the KEMPER Kone is advertised as recreating the "Amp in the room" sound so maybe it's only oranges to grapefruits :).


    I like the Kemper for a reason. Like other digital amps it's just so convenient (which in itself isn't really metal but what can I do? ;)). Transposing my guitars means that I have to bring less guitars to a show and can pretty much do the gig with one guitar and a spare and that is something that I was definitely looking forward to. Also I have all the effects I could ever need at hand. The Kemper doesn't need to be miced up. It solves grounding issues on its own. Also if HAVE different guitars I can very easily get them to the same point sound wise where changing from a Les Paul to a Strat on a tube amp can be a bit tricky. I mean I don't have to tell you, you all know the great ways of the Kemper :)


    So I really want to make this work. But I'm also let's call it "project focused". If the Kemper doesn't do the thing I need I will keep it for practise at home but have to try and come up with a different solution.


    So what I really need is advice in terms of:

    How do I set up my Kemper for rehearsal situations? What additional gear am I missing? Which are in your opinion the best profiles I can get for the type of music I want to do?


    Thank you for your input in advance! I really want to make this happen with my Kemper.

    Edited once, last by Steeldom ().

  • Try this...

    Add a Studio or Graphic EQ after the amp section slot X for example. Then in the EQ use LPF (Low pass filter) and cut off anything above 5000hz -6000hz you can decide how much you want , depends on the amp I am rig I am using and trying to emulate. The problem with FRFR cabs is that they offer way more response in the highs and lows than you would typically get from a normal guitar cabinet. It’s especially noticeable when you turn up the sound and the highs are magnified by the sound level.


    I also tend to use a HPF (high pass filter) and cut out anything below 60hz - 80hz again depending on the cabinet/speakers I am trying to emulate. It will also tighten up your sound and be less muddy.


    You can also use the output section EQ to fine tune for home versus, live or different cabinets and rooms you play in. You can save it as a setting and recall it in the output section as needed. This way you do not need to touch your profiles as the output EQ will be global.


    I prefer the Graphic EQ for simplicity and should be good for you to quickly experiment with using HPF/LPF cuts

    Edited once, last by drog ().

  • there are probably many things that could be wholly or partly responsible so you will need to start at the beginning and work through the chain methodically.


    a few things that spring to mind include:


    did you tweak the eq on on any of the rigs at home at lower volume. Tones that sound great at lower volume often have way too much bass and treble when turned up loud. Its just the way our ears work.


    Stack settings - was the cab on in the Stack section. I realise you weren’t using the Stack’s Cab because you were going through the imprints and Kone. However, it still needs to be switched on or the Kone assumes you are playing a bass or acoustic guitar and goes to FR mode.


    Output settings - Kone One, Monitor Cab Off should enable the imprints. Kone On Monitor Cab Off unticked should give true FR. Kone Off doesn’t apply any DSP so the speaker itself isn’t properly flat.


    What signal do you have on the Monitor Output? I would set it to Master Mono in your situation.


    Have the monitor Output EQ settings accidentally been adjusted?


    You shouldn’t need any additional equipment. The KPA should be totally capable of doing everything you need in the box. Of course, you may have specific personal tastes where a particular FX pedal etc is crucial to your own tone but for the most part everything you need is in the little green box.

  • Having used my KPA for 6 years almost exclusively live, I'm confident its capable of what you need.


    I haven't used the Kabinet in anger yet but its not a million miles away from FRFR so I'm sure its sortable.


    In addition to Alan's comments, some other things to try:

    1) did you switch off transpose? It does produce artefacts although not necessarily like the ones you have described, but you need to rule it out.

    2) Start with a basic sound and build from there. I would suggest finding a place you can crank it outside of rehearsal so you are 90% there. I suspect the profiles are not the best - some can sound shrill. The point is FRFR really shows any weakness in a profile, volume will accentuate it...


    You need to get that basic sound sorted prior to rehearsal and gigs as the FRFR sound will also be the sound direct through a PA. Don;t leave it until you get there as panic will lead to frustration etc.

  • Thank you for your tips so far!


    Yesterday I had the opportunity to try some things out. And I've made some progress but I'm still not there.

    So maybe I have to take a step back and look at it again as a whole.


    Normally with amp modellers what we hear is the sound of the amp, the cab and the microphone. All of it amplified through a PA type of speaker. Right? So you can't really compare that to a tube amp that stands right beside it because these are different points in the signal chain. A fair comparison would be to put the tube amp in another room with a mic and have them both be played through the same PA speaker. That's true for all the modelling gear, if you use it to display the full chain (amp+cab+mic).

    And this has been true for the Kemper as well. But as I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong, the KEMPER Kone is there to bridge that gap. The Kone should in theory reproduce the "amp in the room" sound. So it actually IS fair to compare a Kemper through a Kone to a tube amp standing right beside it, right?

    I just want to be sure that I'm not making the mistake of expecting something that the gear isn't actually meant to do.


    So if that is a fair assessment then shouldn't it also be fair to expect a "plug and play" situation? Like a good tube amp you just plug in and it sounds good right there right then.

    So I'm a bit reluctant in adding a general EQ to this setup. I admit I kinda expect it to sound decent without any major eq tweaking. But that of course means to have the right profiles to begin with.

    So maybe I should start there, like V8 said.


    What I find very difficult is that I don't have a starting point to compare. Profiles online always sound very different when I try them at home. I haven't had a single one where I did the same tone like in a video for example. Of course the guitar has an impact and everything. But I thought there should be at least some that I could use as a point of reference.


    The transpose feature does change the sound a bit. But it doesn't have the major impact that is bothering me.

    I've tried out some ADA profiles and I didn't tweak a thing just to be sure. Monitor out EQ is also not tweaked. Cab was on. I think in that regard I didn't make a mistake.


    I've had some additional thoughts. With guitar cabs closed or open backs can have a huge impact on the sound. Is that also true for the Kone? Because my cab is open and maybe that is something I should change. The Kemper Cab is closed as far as I know. Also how much of an impact does the cabinet actually have on the Kone? I mean it is pretty much the cheapest cab I could find. So maybe a better one/ the Kemper cab would fix that issue?


    In terms of power amp I thought, well my camplifier can still go louder maybe it actually is reaching its limit and starting to get thin? Is that a thing, would a more powerful poweramp handle the situation more easily?

    Has anyone compared 1x12 and 2x12 Kemper Kones. How much of an impact does it have on the sound?


    Also I've though about adding a Tube head to the mix. Now here's my question. I know that I don't want power amp distortion through the Kone, because its not going to sound pleasant. But could I use 4 cable method with the Kemper, and send the full Kone info to the effects return of the tube amp and use it as a clean power amp. Has anyone tried that, and if so what was the result?


    I also came to the conclusion if I can't get the sound out of the Kemper alone I could just use it for effects and quality of life stuff, with the 4CM. Like the detuning etc. But if I could use it standalone that would be great.


    In terms of profiles, do you have any suggestions on very fundamental basic sounds that I could try out? No sound like EVH more like just a cranked Marshall with nothing on it as a starting point?

    I'm open to any suggestions, free as well as commercial profiles.

  • Basically you’re correct that the KPa and Kone should be just as much plug and play as a regular valve amp.


    To answer a few of your questions

    Quote

    With guitar cabs closed or open backs can have a huge impact on the sound. Is that also true for the Kone? Because my cab is open and maybe that is something I should change. The Kemper Cab is closed as far as I know. Also how much of an impact does the cabinet actually have on the Kone? I mean it is pretty much the cheapest cab I could find. So maybe a better one/ the Kemper cab would fix that issue?

    The Kone will be affected in the same way as any other speaker by the cabinet. The cabinet plays a huge part in the sound. Take a Mesa 412 and Marshall 412 both with V30. They are totally different beasts. Neither is necessarily better or worse but they are “different”. Same will happen with the Kone. Closed V Open will also have a huge impact. If you like a closed back cab normally with a valve amp then use a similar cab with the KPA.

    Quote

    In terms of power amp I thought, well my camplifier can still go louder maybe it actually is reaching its limit and starting to get thin? Is that a thing, would a more powerful poweramp handle the situation more easily?

    I would expect the Camplifier to be a pretty good amp for the KPA but if you play very loud you may well be running out of headroom. That is why solid state amps are typically much higher wattage than valve amps when driving the same speakers. You want to make sure you have plenty of headroom to avoid the amp clipping. It would definitely be worth trying to borrow a bigger power amp and testing whether this is part of your problem.

    Quote

    Also I've though about adding a Tube head to the mix. Now here's my question. I know that I don't want power amp distortion through the Kone, because its not going to sound pleasant. But could I use 4 cable method with the Kemper, and send the full Kone info to the effects return of the tube amp and use it as a clean power amp. Has anyone tried that, and if so what was the result?


    In theory that should work fine although there is no need for 4CM. Just plug into KpAas normal then send the output into the FX return of the valve head. However, for me personally it would totally defeat the advantage of the KPA. One of the main reasons I have a KPA is to minimise the amount of gear I need to transport and set up. If I was going tot he trouble of carrying one of my Mesas to a gig I would leave the KPA at home.

    Quote

    I also came to the conclusion if I can't get the sound out of the Kemper alone I could just use it for effects and quality of life stuff, with the 4CM. Like the detuning etc. But if I could use it standalone that would be great.

    again, no reason why this wouldn’t work but if all you require is FX there are better and less expensive options available.

  • If I were in your position, I would stick with one amp type that fits your music and get to know it. Maybe one that is profiled at different gain points at most. (Although I would pick *1* at the highest gain you would use and morph the gain downwards to clean up).


    If you use multiple profile types (amps), you're moving the goal posts as many different profiles (amps) react differently and need to be EQ'ed differently sometimes. You need to be happy with one before moving on.

    The key to everything is patience.
    You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it.
    -- Arnold H. Glasow


    If it doesn't produce results, don't do it.

    -- Me