Extending the KPA via effects/modelers

    Quote from Stemast

    Glad, you sorted thing out for you!

    It has worked out really well so far. The POD HD500 seems to be a perfect complement as far as I can tell. I haven't played with it on it's own, but in the loop of the KPA it works perfectly. Like I mentioned I wanted it for some of the odd effects like the synth models. They're great and work really well with the KPA, but an added bonus has been finding that using the HD500's amps with the cab disabled as distortion/fuzz boxes in front of a profile can be really amazing.

    I was wondering how good or bad the Line6 HD-500 / M9 / M13 effects could be?


    Typically, I don't really like Line6 stuff to be honest. But it seems that the M-Series and HD-Series look to have good reputation for some effects. I don't care much about Amp and/or Cab simulation, I'll get the Kemper for that, but I was wondering how good it could be to have a M13 in-front for some stomps (such drive, chorus, etc..)... in addition of a Nova System in the Audio loops for the Effects (such Reverb, Delay, etc...).


    I know the TC quality (I've been using a G-Sytem at the studio), but does anyone have any good (or bad) experience with the M13/M9 or HD-500 effects?


    Thanks!

    I haven't tried the HD500 in front of the Kemper, only in the effects loop but it did a very good job there IMO. I'm also not a fan of putting a lot of effects like delay before an amp anyway. I'll always go for an amp with an effects loop. I did try my Blackstar HT-5 pedal in front of the Kemper and I did not like the sound of it there at all. Much better in the effects loop, IMO.


    I've never a/b'd the Line6 to the TC... my feeling (based on previous experiences with old Line6 gear) is that the TC is probably better. If you've got one already I'm not sure why you'd want the Pod too, unless it's for the synth models. I can say though that in the effects loop of the Kemper I went though every effect the HD500 had to offer and I was pretty impressed with the overall sound, and like I mentioned before, the fact that you could use an amp as a distortion in a clean rig set up opens up a vast world of possibilities and in the few quick experiments I did I was really impressed.


    Now, it's very inconclusive, but when I have everything in the Kemper turned off but the loop and I used the Pod as a full effect/amp sim system... I was unimpressed. Kemper's amps blow it away. Maybe I'd be less inclined to say this if I were using the HD500 in the way it's intended by the manufacturer.

    Quote from Jimmyno

    My 2 cents: the FX in the KPA have a better overall quality than the ones in the M series from Line6.
    But Line6 fx are way more "creative" and they are a perfect complement to the KPA, IMHO.

    That's a perfect way to put it. I've also noticed that there's a bit of "synergy" (god I hate that word!
    :S ) between the two devices. Not unlike the way a tube screamer sounds different in front of every single amp you use it with. Part of the magic lies in how it overdrives the input. Same holds true here. The KPA makes the HD500 sound better than it does on it's own. There's no doubt about that. I decoupled the Pod HD500 from the KPA's effect loop last night and put it though it's paces all on it's own as Line6 intended it to be used. Not super impressive. I'd rather use Amplitube. I think if you're looking for a cheap hardware amp modeler, Vox is still the way to go over Line6. Line6 is better for quantity and creative scope of effects, but the overall concept suffers.


    If you're looking for effects that are on par with the Kemper's amp model quality I suspect the TC Electronics G-System would probably be on par, but at roughly the same price as the Kemper it was too much for my budget.

    Thanks for the feedback guys... I indeed like the effects of the G-System, and that's why I would consider the Nova System in the Loops to get similar Reverb and Delays effects. It's cheaper than the G-System and more than enough since I wouldn't use the G-System as a Foot Controller, nor a Audio looper. So the Nova System might just be great for Post Effects.


    And for Pre-Stomps, I was looking at the M13 for drives, chorus, flanger and so other "creative" effects to complete the Kemper. Since I'm waiting for the Kemper Rack, I thought I could still buy the effects first and still use them later. But if they're not good at all, I'd prefer not buy it at all and consider the Effect Gizmo with some pedals, or even considering the Axe-2 as I was thinking few months ago (using 4CM). But it's considerably more expensive than the Nova System & M13 :)


    In any case, I would like better the M13 over the Pod HD, because I like the form factor better and I don't care much about Amp&Cab simulations. I do think the Kemper does way better in that category. I still have few other effect racks (11R, Digitech and some old Boss, Art, etc...) but I might just keep them at home for a smaller and lighter rig :)


    If I could do so with the pedals, that would size down the stage setup. I wish someone would do a KPA video to review the different effects :)


    Just thinking out loud...

    Just a consideration: I've been using the HD500 for well over a year and I was not really happy with the drives 'till I've put a zendrive, an ac boost and a cae boost in the loop. With the KPA I miss none of them because I can get far better sounds from the profiles.

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


    Yeah, I would have liked the M13 over the HD500... but for some odd reason they were the same price and you get more with the HD500. 8| Not sure how they're pricing these things over at Line6. Not only do you get the same effects models but all the amp sims and an expression pedal.


    If I were you though, I wouldn't buy a thing until you get your hands on a KPA though. The included effects are very good. The KPA can really be a one box solution for most guitarists. The only real reasons I went ahead with getting the KPA and HD500 as a package were, there was a 15% off sale at the time and I knew I wanted the Line6's synth and pitch shifting effects, regardless as to whether or not I ever use a single one of it's distortion/overdrive effects. They're super good and worth the price of the unit if you're into such things. If you're picky about distortion/overdrive boxes, you might not be as thrilled.


    If you just want a bunch of good traditional stomp boxes I'd recommend getting a few actual stomp boxes and that way you can get the real deal and pick and choose exactly what works best for you. As for getting two effects for pre and post amp placement, I think it's very unnecessary.

    Quote from zerocrossing

    If I were you though, I wouldn't buy a thing until you get your hands on a KPA though. The included effects are very good.


    Thanks for the feedback but I'm not gonna buy the KPA "Head" right now.
    I'm waiting for the rack version and it might not happen before end of the year I guess (Winter NAMM?).
    If the Rack is available in July (Summer NAMM?), that's another story. It's typically a trade show more guitar oriented, so I'm gonna wait until then before to buy anything.


    I'm also having a look on some small amps (Orange Dark Terror, Egnater Tweaker, Mesa Mini Rectifier and TA-15) that could be a good temp solution and "B-Rig". I'm also considering the DT25 just because I like the concept and Bogner (we have a Shiva at the studio and I like it too). But again Line6 and Amp... The only Line6 products I liked really so far was the DL4, FM4, MM4, etc... And that's why I'm looking at the M13, they're supposed to have these effects too. Does anyone actually tried and compare a DL4 and a M13/M9 for these effects?


    If they worked well with the KPA like it might be the case from everything I read here, that might be a good solution (I like the 3x5 layout, very "stomps" approach, and not "foot controller" like the HD500 thought, but it doesn't matter much). Thanks for the feedbacks anyway, I appreciate it.


    I'm still gonna keep some pedal, and even buy some new ones... I'm lately keeping an eye on the Strymon and the Tech 21 Sansamp series. (I tried the Oxford and Liverpool and I liked them). That's also because I'm gonna keep them (for sure for home and studio use), even when I'll get the KPA Rack, that I'm looking at them *right now*.


    The main question is: Will I keep them for stage situation?


    Sorry for being talkative, but it's really a point I'm struggling because now I know what the KPA is capable of, I wish I could use it live too and get some benefits we can get in studio. But I have hard time to be sure of it, for both stomps/effects, as well as the power-amp and cab situation (i.e. my other post). I'm a "modern" kind of guy, who likes digital, VST plugins and all modern technologies... but when it comes to guitar territory, I don't know why, but I always have been a kind of "tube amp snob" and "analog stomps only".


    And from everything I tried so far, I had a good reason to be. The KPA is really the first device I'm really liking for "Tube Amp Simulation"...


    I wish someone would release a "Stomps/Effects Rack" that can profile, clone, model (whatever technology would be used) to reproduce at 99.9% any stomps and/or effects on the market... typically, having what the KPA does for the Amp... but for the Stomps/Effects.


    My 2.5 cents :)
    Phil

    Well, we already know that the KPA's algorithm can't be used to profile other than gain stages.
    While I find that I can cope with an amp whose tonestack is "almost fixed", should a profiled flanger ever be available I'd find not practical to have to deal with just a snapshot of its.
    It might be just me, but in my mind amps and fx are not in the same category.


    OTOH, an fx is much more easily modelled than an amp, so I believe that the main way for cloning fx will be modelling in the next few years as well :)

    I dropped a zoom G5 in front of the KPA the other night. Really quick way to make it a full rig. And the G5 doesnt cost much for what equates to a full backup for the kpa.

    Guitars-Lifeson Axcess Red, Lifeson Axcess Brown, Iced Tea Axcess stop tail, LRP Sig 57
    Amp-Axefx2, KPA, G5, GSP1101, RCF, QSC, Matrix, EHX-Mag44

    When I was shopping and considering everything it came down to the KPA and the "Line6 Dream Rig" sans Variax. So basically the HD500 coupled with the DT25. I think if I could have found the Randal Isolation Cab for sale locally I would have gone the Line6 route. In a sense I think the HD500/DT25-50 is a better sounding solution especially for live shows.


    ...but I'm glad I didn't. When I couldn't find the Randal, I looked into the Jet City. Crappy. Then I looked at the Silent Sister. That seemed to sound great, but put me out of my $2k budget. Again, I'm a studio bound guy at this point. My days of dragging amps around are over. Nothing in it for me and I finally admitted to myself that I never really liked it much. But that's me. If you're looking for a "B" rig I'd highly recommend getting a HD500/DT25 set up. Check it:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9E2eXXwW28



    Now, the issue for me is that either I'd go with an iso cab which would be a) costly, b) expensive and c) still audible or find a truly silent solution. Enter the KPA. Trust me, I was worried that I wouldn't be satisfied by anything that didn't have a real tube in it. :S But I kept hearing demos that blew me away. Like this one:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAuY9OyMsdg&feature=plcp



    (I wish I lived in England, I'd totally shop at Anderton's just to goof with those guys) Can't help but love that sound... but would I love it in person? I did, of course. Best part of it was that there was no fuss for me. Plug and play. For you, though, I'd go for the Line6 now, and then get the Kemper for the studio.


    If that's too rich for your blood, or seems unnecessary, (it does to me, but I'm different) you could get a ton of use just out of the HD500 alone.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3QA4sEl0k&feature=fvwrel



    Then add the Kemper when the rack version comes out. Frankly that's probably how I'd go as tbh I could care less about "pristine" tone in a live show. For me it just has to be good and I think a well made patch on an HD500 is going to sound a hell of a lot better than even a decently mic'd amp in a wonky room. In fact, I think at this point if someone asked me to do a live show and I was in the mood to do it, I'd leave the KPA home anyway and just go lean and portable. Do I still want the DT25. Yes. :huh:



    :lol:

    Thanks Zerocrossing for your great feedback.


    One constant I'm sure: I'm gonna get the Kemper when it will be available in rack format.


    Another constant: I'm not quite convinced with the Pod HD500 pedalboard format. I do prefer the M13 (even if I loose the Amp & Cab simulation... no big deal, mainly later when I'll get the KPA), or even the Pod HD Pro.


    I really love the Mesa Mini Rectifier and TransAtlantic... but I'm gonna still give a try to the DT25 because I really do love the concept (and Bogner stuff). But I'm waiting Summer NAMM... just in case, it's less than 1 month from now. It can't hurt... I still have to bring my PRS to the luthier for some mods (P-Rails, ToneStyler and some wiring :)).


    So I guess, once again, I just need to be patient... (I hate to be patient :) :) :))


    Phil

    Quote from viabcroce

    Well, we already know that the KPA's algorithm can't be used to profile other than gain stages.
    While I find that I can cope with an amp whose tonestack is "almost fixed", should a profiled flanger ever be available I'd find not practical to have to deal with just a snapshot of its.
    It might be just me, but in my mind amps and fx are not in the same category.


    OTOH, an fx is much more easily modelled than an amp, so I believe that the main way for cloning fx will be modelling in the next few years as well :)


    I recently bought a Line 6 M13 for my Kemper. I feel like between the two, I've got all bases covered. I do not play live anymore, only at home through studio monitors, so your experience might be different if you gig a lot.


    The KPA has most of the standard effects anyone might usually use, but I needed/wanted more versatility in that area.


    I wish guitar modelling was at the level of effects and amp modelling these days. I tried a JTV Variax guitar over a weekend recently, and I was very underwhelmed. To me, most of the modeled guitars didn't sound that different from one another, with the exception of the acoustics and the sitar/ banjo type sounds. I used it with a Line 6 HD500, and really liked how well the two worked together but not enough to overcome my issues with the Variax guitar itself and the amp sims on the HD500.


    Maybe Chris Kemper could put his expertise to work on a guitar Profiler one day. :whistling: