One last discussion on ethics of Profiling: Amp manufacturers using tech to block profiling?

  • Skip to the 7.11 mark or so in the video.


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    Apparently they're referring to the new VHX by Diezel amps. There's a failsafe built in apparently that prevents profiling.


    The guy from Revv also says a bit later that he thinks that Kemper should look into official profiles from manufacturers which would contribute a few dollars to those manufacturers.


    Honestly, I've been offered literally thousands of commercial profiles by a guy I know for free, and I turned him down. Kind of makes you wonder how many people would say yes to something like that.


    What does that mean to a commercial profiler, to put in hours of work, only to be cheated by it?


    Going back to amp manufacturers, sure, they can't do anything about profiles already out there and more profiles with existing amps.


    But if more manufacturers latch on to the idea of a failsafe to prevent profiling, it could mean that users miss out on a lot of interesting amps in future.


    Maybe Kemper should adopt the idea that a lot of users had suggested earlier, some kind of binding process with official profiles to Kempers, or something like that.


    It's all cutting edge tech, and we've seen what digital disruption can do. In that regard, it will be most interesting to see what something how amp manufacturers react to something like the Kemper.


    Earlier in the video, the Revv guy says they actually partnered with Line 6 for the Revv models in the Helix. That's pretty cool.


    Remember, it's under a decade old technology, so we may see some surprises yet! 8)


  • It's part of the answer. I think some kind of copy protection would be a great move on Kemper's part. That would convince a whole lot more amp manufacturers to do what Dr Z did.


    The way things are going though, I see the opposite happening. More manufacturers are going to find ways to prevent profiling from happening with their new amps.

  • Victory Amps is another example for an amp manufacturer who sells as well profiles of their own amps.


    And I was thinking already quite some time if this in our digital age might not be a new business concept for some of the amp builders as well. Just build a prototype, create great profiles, sell profiles and never produce the amp head etc. physically in series. Sounds appealing but I assume you can't make a living out of this any more... :/

  • Victory Amps is another example for an amp manufacturer who sells as well profiles of their own amps.


    And I was thinking already quite some time if this in our digital age might not be a new business concept for some of the amp builders as well. Just build a prototype, create great profiles, sell profiles and never produce the amp head etc. physically in series. Sounds appealing but I assume you can't make a living out of this any more... :/



    Well, do you sell hundreds of profiles at $10 each, or do you sell one amp costing $4000 that can't be profiled?

  • This kind of tech can be bypassed by cleverer people. I wouldn't worry at all..

    They said the same about CD copy protection. It took just a couple of days and a kid had cracked the code. Record Companies wanted to stop the mp3. How many buy a CD today? You can't stop technological progress. Embrace it instead. Instead of blaming something like Kemper. Maybe more invest money in HW amps becuase they want to make their own profiles? Who knows? You can't blame technology becuase your sale decrease. I know Laney, Blackstar and Engl have hybrid amps. That's how to embrace new technology.

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

    Edited once, last by GearJocke ().

  • They said the same about CD copy protection. It took just a couple of days and a kid had cracked the code. Record Companies wanted to stop the mp3. How many buy a CD today? You can't stop technological progress. Embrace it instead. Instead of blaming something like Kemper. Maybe more invest money in HW amps becuase they want to make their own profiles? Who knows? You can't blame technology becuase your sale decrease. I know Laney, Blackstar and Engl have hybrid amps. That's how to embrace new technology.



    We were talking about ethics. Downloading torrents is illegal, even if there's no way to enforce that. You can say everyone is doing it, and then cry foul about people sharing commercial profiles or IRs, but you don't really have a leg to stand on.


    As far as the Kemper, we already know the profiling procedure is legal.


    But if something is used to prevent profiling, I don't think it will be as simple as breaching CD protection, as easy as it sounds. Because the Kemper uses its own OS, it's not a question of some kid just spending a few days and cracking it.


    And remember the REVV guy in the video said that other manufacturers might adopt similar technology.


    It's a very interesting development, I thought.

  • All the great amps that I personally love are already out there in the wild and have been for years. I think the most modern of those is the CAE 3~SE preamp paired with my Mesa 295 power amp.

    I own most of my favourite amps already and will eventually profile all of them. I did sell my SLO a year or so ago. Still have all the others including that 68 Small box 50w Plexi next to the SLO.


  • There are a bunch of guitar players out there who are convinced that modelers suck and can't touch or even come near a real tube amp,

    yet when they see that a manufacturer goes out of their way and spends money to stop the modeler, these players get a message of "it's so close we have to do something" and that's the moment that the player is willing to give the modeler a serious look.


    I feel for the manufacturers, I don't have a solution for them but this kind protection idea will only hurt them even more.

  • This circular argument keeps reoccurring.


    The manufacturers benefit from those who like what they hear and feel via Profiles and many who've never even considered buying tube amps do so after using a Kemper. It's a form of free advertising.

    So true - I'm now gassing for a JJ jr :thumbup:

  • This circular argument keeps reoccurring.


    The manufacturers benefit from those who like what they hear and feel via Profiles and many who've never even considered buying tube amps do so after using a Kemper. It's a form of free advertising.


    I'm pretty sure that it's not a free form

    of advertising, as rosy as that sounds in Kemper land.


    The Kemper authenticity actually motivates more people to ditch their amps for the Profiler, there's plenty of evidence of that from numerous forums.


    Most people can't even be arsed to keep their existing amps, when their are high quality profiles already made of them.


    Obviously manufacturers are feeling that pinch, as evidenced by the tech to prevent profiling.


    Honestly, looking at these forums, how many users have you seen with amp collections or even one tube amp? Or how many posts saying, "I bought this amp after playing it on my Kemper".


    I've hardly seen any really. A few here and there, sure, but nowhere near close enough to buttress the argument that the Kemper motivates people to buy tube amps, which is ridiculous.

  • You missunderstod my point. :rolleyes:

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

  • I'm pretty sure that it's not a free form of advertising, as rosy as that sounds in Kemper land.

    The manufacturers receive revenue from the amp sales that lead to Profiling, the result of which is exposure to Kemper users. IOW, it can be argued that it's not just free, but that they're paid for the advertising, an unheard-of scenario.

    The Kemper authenticity actually motivates more people to ditch their amps for the Profiler, there's plenty of evidence of that from numerous forums.

    True, just as it motivates many who've never bought tube amps to do so both for recording and home-based playing pleasure.


    Honestly, looking at these forums, how many users have you seen with amp collections or even one tube amp? Or how many posts saying, "I bought this amp after playing it on my Kemper".


    I've hardly seen any really.

    I've seen many over the years. In fact, I can't think of anyone over at Rig Talk, for example, who owns a Kemper and hasn't retained at least a few amps.

    A few here and there, sure, but nowhere near close enough to buttress the argument that the Kemper motivates people to buy tube amps, which is ridiculous.

    I agree that the I/O ratio figures aren't equal; it'd be an unrealistic scenario in the real world, but this inequality certainly doesn't constitute grounds for saying that the proposition is ridiculous. It's a fact; it happens.


    Case in point:

    You yourself have bought amps that the Kemper exposed you to, haven't you? Not only that, but you're ditching the unit again. I see this pattern often, and sure, many return to Kemper, but not before adding to their amp collections.


    Also, it's a well-known fact that many pros make no secret of employing their amps "in the studio" and use Kempers to take the recorded sounds on the road. This is another form of advertising via Kemperland 'cause it reinforces in the minds of the user base that nothing beats the real thing.


    It's obvious to me that, as I declared in post #12, it's ultimately a circular argument and my responses in this post demonstrate this IMHO. Every gripe a manufacturer has can be countered, albeit not always in full-measure, by an argument in the opposite direction, and let's not forget that every Kemperite's fully aware of the fact that in a world without tube amps the Kemper would have practically no raison d'être.


    Thank you for responding, Brother AJ. <3

  • Not sure if anyone is following the thread on TGP (maybe someone posted it in this thread and I missed it?) but the tech from Diezel chimed in and explained that the device does not prevent profiling the amp, instead it simply remembers that the amp was profiled. The point being to give the dealers a tool to know when someone has purchased an amp to profile it and then return it for a refund. I'm going to be honest and say that I think this is a good idea, it does not seem fair that someone would purchase an amp, profile it and then return it for a refund, especially if they sell the profiles. I have no idea how often this happens but I suspect that it does to some extent.

  • Not sure if anyone is following the thread on TGP (maybe someone posted it in this thread and I missed it?) but the tech from Diezel chimed in and explained that the device does not prevent profiling the amp, instead it simply remembers that the amp was profiled. The point being to give the dealers a tool to know when someone has purchased an amp to profile it and then return it for a refund. I'm going to be honest and say that I think this is a good idea, it does not seem fair that someone would purchase an amp, profile it and then return it for a refund, especially if they sell the profiles. I have no idea how often this happens but I suspect that it does to some extent.

    I've posted over there on this; anything beyond just gathering information is a risk to them anyway. If they were to cut the amp out in some manner believing it was profiled, at a minimum they are opening themselves up to a bug that could disable amps and aggravate their customer base.


    I definitely get the "buy the amp to profile it and send it back". It may be legal and within the framework of the seller/buyer agreements, but I'd argue that it's wrong, particularly when a profit is being made. That action violates the good faith existence of return agreements. Just because something is legal or agreed to doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, particularly with companies who go a long way to make sure customers are taken care of.


    Even if you're not down with profiling and think it steals IP (I don't know of IP that exists that is simply things like frequency response and transform results, but I don't agree given my knowledge), there are lots of people who own the amps they profile and use it for convenience, including mid to high end touring artists. It's not as simple as "bought a Kemper, didn't own the amp".

  • The point being to give the dealers a tool to know when someone has purchased an amp to profile it and then return it for a refund. I'm going to be honest and say that I think this is a good idea, it does not seem fair that someone would purchase an amp, profile it and then return it for a refund, especially if they sell the profiles. I have no idea how often this happens but I suspect that it does to some extent.

    Agree 100%, Tim.

    I definitely get the "buy the amp to profile it and send it back". It may be legal and within the framework of the seller/buyer agreements, but I'd argue that it's wrong, particularly when a profit is being made. That action violates the good faith existence of return agreements. Just because something is legal or agreed to doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, particularly with companies who go a long way to make sure customers are taken care of.

    Agreed, mate; it's disingenuous at best.

    ... there are lots of people who own the amps they profile and use it for convenience, including mid to high end touring artists. It's not as simple as "bought a Kemper, didn't own the amp".

    I agree again; I alluded to this earlier. :thumbup: