Playing live through a real cab AND going direct?

The same approach should work with the Kemper I reckon? Use monitor out EQ for the cab and master out EQ for FOH.

That's where a FRFR cab might be tremendously-convenient, Josh; it'd take 90% of the guesswork out of the equation 'cause you could simply send complete Rigs to both feeds.

At rehearsal im using monitor out with cab off into my peavey valveking and marshall 4x12 1960 cab and one main out to a yamaha dxr 10. Sometimes i dont bother to connect the amp and cab since its so directional, but it sounds good with both.

Playing live i just use my dxr as a monitor and feed main out to the mixer.

Guess you could stick a mike in front of the speaker and do it the old fashioned way, but theese days the venues and soundguys aren`t really overly fond of loud stage sound.

For me the best way is going direct and get the "same sound" as my dxr and have less unknown parameters changing your sound not regarding the different PA systems at venues though:P

So the reasoning regarding an amp and cab is more the feel and thump during rehearshal and more of an hassle when it comes to live gigging if you ask me:)

This depends if you want the same speaker and cab sound for both.

For me, if I'm using a profile with v30's and I'm using a real cab with the same, it's easier to use the monitor output eq to get into the same ballpark. But the magic of using different cab speaker mic profiles is a bit lost. Some say using the same cab mic for all profiles is more consistant which is true but others really love that the FOH gets a variety of sounds for the mix. In that case, I would dial in the best sound for the real cab using the monitor output eq and let that be it's own thing for the feels while having the FOH get all the variety of cab speaker cab mic profiles.

My favorite set up is both but it's a lot of gear,

Powered Kemper into a 4x12 or 2x12 with two Powered monitors on the sides running in stereo. Or adding another small amp to power another cab via direct out into power amp in.

Big raw sound and big prestige polished perfect sound together has been my favorite sound so far.

Throw a 2nd kemper or another good modeler and run that via alternative input and route accordingly or separate and control them both with midi. For sure this last one is excessive, or is it?

I tried this first time around and had issues because the cabs add so much colour, you end up having to try and reverse engineer your sound and its counter productive.

When I started, I miked up a 4x12. I then tried to go direct and its sounded awful. I was confused....turned out my profiles were crap but the cab masked it. I had to use FRFR to get my sound set up.

My view has now changed.... my backline sound used to be the most important because that was miked and sent to FOH. FRFR now gives me the sound that is sent to the PA.

The amp in the room sound is now less important and its purely for monitoring. Yes it needs to sound good but I prefer the accuracy. What I hear is what is coming out of the PA, I don;t know why people want to hear a false sound...now when I do run a 4x12 ( at festivals for example), they feel muffled and less alive. I think its what you get used to, bit like IEM's.

Having played in very heavy rock bands very loud, I've not come close to maxing out my 1 x12 FRFR so not sure where you get they are not loud enough...I have 3 of them I've used at various times, never had an issue.

Also depends on the sound you want....cleaner/punchier is better than "spread" and I'd never go stereo or feel the need to lug 4x12's around. But that's just me...

Quote from joshriggs

Thanks. I'm not interested in going FRFR as I mentioned earlier in the thread. but good to know about the cab settings. I have a good 2x12 v30 cab and power amp, and don't want to have to sell all that plus spend more to get an FRFR big enough for my needs. The profiles I hope to use live are all professionally made, and have direct versions, so hopefully that won't be an issue.

So were mine...I used to run a 4x12 with V30's as well and I tried merged profiles the lot.

Dude its up to you, I've just not struggled with my 1 x12 FRFR volume wise - its very different to a regular cab in terms of spread. If you've tried it and not liked it, then fair enough.

BTW my un-powered FRFR's were cheap - most I paid was for the Kabinet, my wedge was £180, but understand you don't want to spend more money.

i can’t imagine a situation where a 1x12 isn’t loud enough. If its too loud for a 1x1w then your hearing is getting seriously damaged even with ear protection. For 30 years I used a Dual Rectifier with either one or 2 Mesa EVM12L Thiele cabs. One was plenty loud enough but two aloud a better spread for big stages. I’ve always hated 412 cabs anyway but a 1x12 can be devastatingly loud.

there is a reason metal bands don’t use small amps and cabs but not that one ?

Sorry, i’m only pulling your leg. If you need a 412 and it works for you go for it. ?

Quote from joshriggs

When you play in a metal band with my drummer

But seriously, it's not about peak loudness. For heavy tones with tight low end, nothing makes up for moving more air via more speakers. So yes, a single 12" FRFR might have enough volume to be heard over a loud drummer, it will sound thin and hollow compared to 2x12s at the same volume. If I was playing indie rock, classic rock, country, etc, a single 12" frfr would be fine. There's a reason you don't see metal and heavy rock bands with 1x12 combos on stage. And I hope I don't come off as an ass here, it's just my experience.

Just so you know, I play in a metal band as well. The point here is everyone used to rely upon the back line because it drove the FOH but even if its thin and hollow, it doesn't impact how everyone else hears it. I just think you will waste time trying to match backline and FOH.

Trivium like many bands have eliminated their back line and only focus on FOH.

BTW you are not coming across like an ass, I was totally in your place. Not trying to sell you on FRFR and this might not be right for you, just trying to save your back lugging 4 x12's around when I think the KPA means you don't really need them, primarily because you have the direct out

If it doesn't work for you, its all cool

Quote from joshriggs

With previous modelers I owned, I would EQ my tone for the real cab how I wanted it, and then A/B it with the direct signal to our rehearsal room PA and try to find a cab IR that sounded similar.

I'd suggest doing things the other way round: first find and tune a profile (including speaker) that best represents the sound that you want the audience to hear (your "signature" sound) using FRFR, P.A., or monitor speakers. This is the signal that you feed to the P.A. - you can now be somewhat confident (depending on the tech person) that your sound is good for the audience.

Then use the monitor output (with "Monitor Cab off") for your stage sound. Use the monitor EQ to adapt the profile to your specific cabinet - it will not affect the sound that's delivered to the P.A. Twist and turn until you're happy with your stage sound - done!

Quote from Wheresthedug

i can’t imagine a situation where a 1x12 isn’t loud enough. If its too loud for a 1x1w then your hearing is getting seriously damaged even with ear protection. For 30 years I used a Dual Rectifier with either one or 2 Mesa EVM12L Thiele cabs. One was plenty loud enough but two aloud a better spread for big stages. I’ve always hated 412 cabs anyway but a 1x12 can be devastatingly loud.

The Thiele EVM12L with 110 dB/W in the mid range is the loudest 112 cabinet around, so I am not surprised. It's small but I don't like the weight (20kg).

Quote from joshriggs

i have a 2x12 Orange-style Avatar cab. It's heavy AF, though. And maybe I just had the wrong modeler / FRFR combo before (Helix + Friedman ASC-12). What are some good FRFR options that retain their fullness when cranked over a loud drummer?

The problem was clearly the Helix Seriously, its a good set up.

There are so many options out there....I was keen not to spend a lot of money on FRFR. When I first started it was all Atomic CLR's, Gemini's etc. I just bought a PA un-powered 1 x12 wedge. I used a Yamaha DXR as a reference - remember at this point I'd only ever used a guitar cab so I had no idea what it should sound like. From there I had to re-do all my profiles.

So, to go back over whats been said:

• Is a 1 x12 FRFR loud enough to compete with a loud drummer - I believe so
• Is it full enough? Only you can answer that. Personally I think the answer is yes, at worst its good enough (mindset change). I would argue that fullness is also not always the best to cut through. The amount of times I found a great full, wide sound that disappears in a band mix.
• Should you buy an FRFR? I think you need to try first but definitely useful to set up your profiles as mentioned by ToH2002

Hope this helps and feel free to ignore me if I'm just adding confusion

A few months ago I was about to get a Techo 21 Poder Engine Deuce Deluxe, but then the Kabinet became my first option. Different beasts altogether, but in a similar price range and weight., actually cheaper because It is active. You can disable the tweeter in the Tech 21, so you can make it less FRFR. But sure it is not like the Kabinet. Probably better for an acoustic guitar and to have a similar sound to the PA. I still have an Engl Sovereign combo, which gathers dust, and which is a pain in the... to move around.