Fractal Audio perpetual wait list

  • No, profiles made originally sound exactly the same. The profiling process has improved, but the profiles don't change how they sound, they're two different things.


    Every time the AxeFX gets an update you have to adjust your settings and sometimes you can't get it totally back to where it was.


    Constant updates are a double edged sword for both the user and the product.


    The other aspect is how many updates are needed. The Kemper hasn't really needed any updates to get to sound the way it does today. Because of the way Fractal constantly change the models and tech then the Axe really has needed all it's updates to get to the point it's at today.


    It's a different concept and ethos. But it does underly that the Kemper got it right and the Axe (and others) have spent all this time still trying to catch up to the Kemper. The thing that a few studio owners have mentioned is that for them most people use the Axe for its tremendous FX and not its sim, while the Kemper is used for its sim. To me that speaks about the strengths of both.


    The real trouble for both units is competition. Less so for the Kemper because of the patent although they don't seem to have defended it against Mooer (or maybe they're not aware of that), for the AxeFX though there have been a myriad of other standard sims that have come out, each cheaper, each pushing the envelope that little bit further. Companies like Yamaha are able to undercut and mass produce. Software options don't have to worry about the overhead of hardware at all.


    I get the feeling that Christoph's point about the Kemper was more that it's at the limit of signal emulation. I seem to recall him saying something like "it can't get realer than this" in terms of that there is almost nothing differentiating the result of real vs modeled in terms of waveform itself and the whole "guitar amp" nut has been cracked. Now I'm not sure if I truly believe that myself but it does feel like there hasn't been anything that's come along and sounded more like a real amp yet and the steps that others have taken have been getting smaller and smaller.

    I do think there's still room for improvement in the profiling process and in the cab (which should have some room reverb and maybe a higher resolution), and I actually wish that the background loops were optionally stored as part of the profiles because that noise even just as a frequency graph to apply to white noise because that aspect totally changes the way a profile sounds/feels once you switch off from profiling mode.

    Anyhow, my experience of both communities is that there's good and bad, overall to me the FAS one feels more aggressive and defensive, but thankfully both have calmed down a bit in recent years and got back on with making music.

  • It was a polite way of saying my point has apparently cleared your head by at least a foot. I can't tell if you're being obstinate or what.

    insults aren't a valid substitute for substantive rebuttal. I understood your point. I don't agree with nor relate to it, and you were also factually inaccurate.

  • insults aren't a valid substitute for substantive rebuttal. I understood your point. I don't agree with nor relate to it.

    No. You either didn't understand or chose not to. Either way, the result is the same. You saying you've understood doesn't change that basic fact.

    Substantive rebuttal? How quaint. Why bother with a substantive rebuttal when the person it's directed towards either can't comprehend it, or chooses not to? Have the last word. You clearly need it more than I do.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • No. You either didn't understand or chose not to. Either way, the result is the same. You saying you've understood doesn't change that basic fact.

    Anyone can claim their point wasn't understood, and often this is claimed as a way to dismiss undesirable points that said participant can't refute, though feel free to explicate where my understanding falls short. If you can't do that, then do yourself a favor and don't bother responding. Fact is, the Kemper's functionality and features are not exactly the same now as they were in 2011, and that's the pivotal claim that your point rested on.

  • Every time the AxeFX gets an update you have to adjust your settings and sometimes you can't get it totally back to where it was.

    Well, no, you don't have to revise your presets after every update. Changes to the modeling, specifically, can, but may not necessarily, affect the sound of presets.


    Constant updates are a double edged sword for both the user and the product.

    Updates are optional. A lot of people do update because the pros generally outweigh the cons.


    The other aspect is how many updates are needed. The Kemper hasn't really needed any updates to get to sound the way it does today.

    The flip side to that point is, where the Kemper's at today (sonically) is the same place it was at almost a decade ago; profiling accuracy ranges from outstanding to notably inaccurate, and based on comments Christoph made at NAMM 2018, there's virtually no room for improvement, unfortunately. It's been mentioned by me and others (eg. Andy Sneap) that adding a layer of EQ matching to the end of the profiling process would generally resolve many of the audible discrepancies I, and many others, hear, but that's unlikely to happen.

    It's a different concept and ethos. But it does underly that the Kemper got it right and the Axe (and others) have spent all this time still trying to catch up to the Kemper. The thing that a few studio owners have mentioned is that for them most people use the Axe for its tremendous FX and not its sim, while the Kemper is used for its sim. To me that speaks about the strengths of both.

    The profiling process works well on average, though you can definitely see discrepancies in the frequency response when comparing a reference amp to its profile using a spectrum analyzer. It was also noted in the original KPA FAQ that the profiling process requires that no more than one stage is distorting significantly, lest the results be compromised. Now, if you listen critically, you can generally hear a difference in the low/high end, though it's often a trivial difference. Sometimes, however, it's fairly significant.


    I'm not sure what you're basing the claim that few studio owners (and I assume artists) use the Axe-Fx solely for effects on. Metallica uses the Axe-Fx amp models quite extensively.

    I get the feeling that Christoph's point about the Kemper was more that it's at the limit of signal emulation. I seem to recall him saying something like "it can't get realer than this" in terms of that there is almost nothing differentiating the result of real vs modeled in terms of waveform itself and the whole "guitar amp" nut has been cracked. Now I'm not sure if I truly believe that myself but it does feel like there hasn't been anything that's come along and sounded more like a real amp yet and the steps that others have taken have been getting smaller and smaller.

    Well, of course the profiling process could be more accurate, as evidenced by discrepancies in the frequency response between the actual amp and profile, though generally it's accurate enough to fool a lot of listeners in a blind test.

  • insults aren't a valid substitute for substantive rebuttal. I understood your point. I don't agree with nor relate to it, and you were also factually inaccurate.

    He tried really hard to get you to understand his correct point. You can take an original Kemper from way back and simply update it with their free software and when you're done it's identical to a new one in terms of sound and features.

    Are you saying you can buy a Fractal from 8 years ago and do the same?

  • He tried really hard to get you to understand his correct point. You can take an original Kemper from way back and simply update it with their free software and when you're done it's identical to a new one in terms of sound and features.

    The claim which that point is based on is a fallacy. If you update an original Kemper that has the original OS to the current firmware version, the features, functionality and sound will not be identical to the original OS, unless you believe the only changes between the original OS and the latest firmware are simply bug fixes. There have been numerous updates to the feature set, as well as new features. Surely you've heard of Morphing? And do you think updates and additions to the effects algorithms (eg. reverb, delay) made no sonic difference?

  • *sigh... never mind. You're trying hard to not get the point.

    On the contrary, you're trying hard to avoid defending it. An original Kemper with the original OS updated to the current firmware version will not have identical features or sound, thus asking whether the Axe-Fx "can do that" is irrelevant. The point is based on a false premise.

  • I think it depends on how a comment is perceived by members of a given forum. In the case of the Fractal Audio forum, I've always made it very clear I love both units equally, so anything positive I say with regards to the Kemper isn't meant as an attack against the Axe-Fx, and that tends to diffuse any defensiveness that might normally result.

    Super true! Great insight ColdFrixion!

    I actually was recently talking on another forum about something similar to that. I that how something is said is much more important than what the general message is. A huge part of communication is delivery:) and your insight makes me think of that general concept ^^


    It seems great minds think alike! There are definitely awesome people on each side of the fence and even people who don't get along can find some common ground on these forums. I think that's part of the great thing about the gear community :)


    I too, hope to be in both camps and have both units like you do. So like you, I don't promote the need to make one out to be better than the other or anything like that. They're both great units and both have really strong advantages to them. It would be awesome to have both one day ^^

  • I might be in the minority here, but I honestly don't care that much about 100% accuracy. There are so many variables - mics, cabs, rooms, tube brands, biasing, manufacturing variations, etc - that going for exact accuracy seems a little pointless. I certainly don't care if the profile / model I use is 100% accurate to an actual version as long as it sounds great.


    "Man, I love the way this Kemper Stage sounds, and it's so easy to use. But I'm returning it because I can't adjust the brightness cap on the 1968 bandmaster by 2 jiggavolts."


    For me personally, it's about 1. Good tones (amps and effects), and 2. A great user interface. And this Kemper Stage has some gorgeous industrial design going on. Anyone else feel this way?

  • Curious to know what the hardware differences are in the early Kempers that makes them sound different even once they're updated to the latest software.

    There haven't been any revisions to the hardware, and the amp/cab portion of KPA profiles don't sound different; however, the effects algorithms for the reverbs and delays have been updated, and those do sound different than the reverbs/delays in early firmware versions.

  • I might be in the minority here, but I honestly don't care that much about 100% accuracy. There are so many variables - mics, cabs, rooms, tube brands, biasing, manufacturing variations, etc - that going for exact accuracy seems a little pointless. I certainly don't care if the profile / model I use is 100% accurate to an actual version as long as it sounds great.


    "Man, I love the way this Kemper Stage sounds, and it's so easy to use. But I'm returning it because I can't adjust the brightness cap on the 1968 bandmaster by 2 jiggavolts."


    For me personally, it's about 1. Good tones (amps and effects), and 2. A great user interface. And this Kemper Stage has some gorgeous industrial design going on. Anyone else feel this way?

    I understand you don't place much importance on accuracy and that's fine; however, I would argue that the pursuit of accuracy has been the driving force behind the sonic improvements we enjoy from today's top tier modelers, and it'll likely continue to be the driving force unless and until tube amps are no longer the gold standard by which we measure modelers. In Kemper's case, sonic accuracy is really its big claim to fame.

  • I thought the firmware can be updated for free.

    It can, just like the Axe-Fx, Helix and every other modeler can be updated for free. And when Christoph releases Kemper 2.0, updates will be free for that, as well.


    Obviously, you don't have to buy a new version of the Kemper to take advantage of the latest version of the profiling process, because there is no latest version. The quality of the profiling is essentially the same now as it was in 2011. Having said that, even my Axe-Fx II was able to accurately reproduce the sound of my favorite Kemper profiles via the Tone Match feature. I certainly didn't need to buy an Axe-Fx III or install the most current firmware to be able to do that. Now, while there have been numerous updates to the Axe-Fx's amp modeling, the core of the amp modeling has sounded excellent for years, and many of the modeling updates were simply polish. In fact, I personally prefer the sound of the amp models in the Axe-Fx II and III to the amp section of my favorite Kemper profiles.


    However, where I think the Kemper shines is in the sonic quality of its cabs. While I never use the Kemper's amps in conjunction with the Axe-Fx's cabs, I do use the Kemper's cabs in conjunction with the Axe-Fx's amp models quite a bit, namely because many of my favorite profiles have excellent sounding cabs. In fact, I've captured a number of them in the Axe-Fx using the Axe-Fx's built-in IR capture utility. As far as amps are concerned though, I do find that I prefer the amp modeling in the Axe-Fx to the amp section of most of my favorite Kemper profiles.

  • However, where I think the Kemper shines is in the sonic quality of its cabs. While I never use the Kemper's amps in conjunction with the Axe-Fx's cabs, I do use the Kemper's cabs in conjunction with the Axe-Fx's amp models quite a bit, namely because many of my favorite profiles have excellent sounding cabs. In fact, I've captured a number of them in the Axe-Fx using the Axe-Fx's built-in IR capture utility. As far as amps are concerned though, I do find that I prefer the amp modeling in the Axe-Fx to the amp section of most of my favorite Kemper profiles.

    This is quite interesting! Fascinating that the Kemper captures cabs in a way you seem to prefer. And it's even more awesome that you have been able to covert some cab sections into IRs. I didn't know that Fractal had a Cab IR capture utility and that's really cool! Another really great feature. And it adds to the list of reasons why it would be super beneficial to have one alongside the Kemper^^


    I've actually wondered how someone would take a cab from a profile and somehow convert it into an IR. That's definitely something I've even heard other Kemper users talk about and would be nice to be able to do without needing an Axe FX. But, I digress lol.


    Its nice to know that in the future when I hopefully can get an Axe FX III or something, that there's some really cool stuff you can do with both units together ^^


    Plus, at this point, just seeing more ODs get added to the Fractal firmware was like a kick in the nuts l because I've been DYING for some more OD options in the Kemper. The Precision Drive was added from what I saw on Leon Todds YouTube channel and, thats my fav OD that I unfortunately can't afford right now. So seeing that kind of hurt because I wish the Kemper was adding the Precision Drive and other awesome ODs. Aren't there like almost 30 ODs in the Axe FX now or something like that? The number has to be at least 3 to 4 times as many as in the Kemper. That alone is enough to make me at least interested in investing in a Fractal unit down the road. I'll ALWAYS love my Kemper and I get amazing tones from it. But I really wish it had some more options as far as effects and ODs go like the Axe FX has. And if that stuff is never expanded much in the Kemper firmware, I'll probably be getting an Axe FX at some point so I'll be able to have both amazing units :)