DI Profiles

  • I have the Kemp 600w powerhead and use a real Marshall 2x12 cabinet. CAB is off on the Kemp. Should I be using DI Profiles with this type of setup? I do find most of the factory rigs sort of flat and takes me some time to tweak with an added EQ block. Just wondering if I should be using DI profiles instead.

    I see ChopTones has many DI Profiles packs. Before I pulled to trigger on one I was just wondering if this is something I should consider.

  • When using studio profiles and switching off the cab, the Profiler’s cabdriver algorithm estimates the cab portion of the profile and subtracts it from the output signal that goes into your cab.


    While this is an estimation and not as 100% accurate as direct amp profiles I've always found the results great sounding.


    Therefore I doubt you'll get much better results when using 3rd party direct amp profiles.


    IMO it’s much more worthwhile to check why you find those profiles sort of flat.

    Perhaps your cab is a bit dark sounding (that would explain it)? What speakers are in it?

  • Actually, any profile will work. DI only get the pre and power amp without the cabinet. Studio get the amp+cabinet. Merged use the DI, and add the cabinet from another profile. This gives a better representation of each item separately.


    Studio profiles do a decent job of separating the two, thus giving you the amp, but not as good as Merged, and DI. Try other profiles, including studio profiles, and turn off the cabinet. Also try some merged profiles, since they are the same as DI when you turn off the cab on the Kemper.


    A general rule is: If it sound good, it is good.

  • Cel G12T-75. Not a dark dull speaker.

  • ... Merged use the DI, and add the cabinet from another profile. This gives a better representation of each item separately...

    REAL merged profiles do not use a cab from another profile! Kempers cabdriver would be still active in this scenario, if a cab from any studio profile is used. But merged is a separation without cabdriver estimating.


    Merged cab is a studio profile minus direct amp profile of the same amp setting. Then Kempers merge function is used.


    "Merged -- This requires a secondary step, after the Direct Amp profiling process. Immediately after capturing the Direct Amp profile, and without making any changes to the amp settings, a normal "Studio" profile is made. The KPA now has data from just the amp (Direct amp profile), as well as the combination Amp + Cab from the Studio profile. The person making the profile (i.e., the original author) then uses the MERGE function, and Merges the Direct and Studio profiles. This is now a Merged profile, which allows the KPA to perfectly separate and subtract the Cab part of the profile from the Amp. Obviously, if the person making the profile only wants the Direct Amp (no cabinet), then the second step and subsequent Merge procedure is not applicable."

  • I have the Kemp 600w powerhead and use a real Marshall 2x12 cabinet. CAB is off on the Kemp. Should I be using DI Profiles with this type of setup? I do find most of the factory rigs sort of flat and takes me some time to tweak with an added EQ block. Just wondering if I should be using DI profiles instead.

    I see ChopTones has many DI Profiles packs. Before I pulled to trigger on one I was just wondering if this is something I should consider.

    The point here is that Direct or merged will be more accurate but not necessarily better.


    There will be lots of factors affecting tone, which also includes volume. You ahve a number of options:


    1) Try to rule out the cab first by getting a direct tone via headphones, direct out to FOH or monitors.

    2) Try some free packs from commercial providers before you splugh out

    3) Try some of the free profiles from Bert M...they are pretty good and a good baseline

    4) As comemrcial packs in general aren't expensive you can try them...

  • Hi dacop1313! Another Kemper user actually recently made a video about this exact scenario and there's sound samples using both situations. You get to hear the difference with a mic'd up cab when using a DI profile vs a Studio profile with the cab turned off.


    Both DI and Studio profile with cab off can sound good through a cab depending on the situation but, the DI Profile won't have any coloration from any cab section and will be the most accurate representation of an amp. Studio profiles w/ cab turned off through a real cab can get pretty good results but in direct comparison to a DI or Merged Profile of the same Studio profile being used through a cab, the DI or Merged profiles typically sound less boomy and woofy. I think it might be because DI or Merged profiles don't have the factor of having any of the cab section in the amp section due to CabDriver not having to guess where to split the amp and cab. But I'm not entirely sure, that's just my guess lol^^


    I personally always just turned off the cab section in studio profiles and didn't think much of any difference until A/Bing them after seeing the video. Now I typically will use DI profiles through a power amp and speaker.


    Of course, if you get good results doing it another way, then do what sounds good to you :) But if you're wondering which kind of of profiles will most likely work the best with a setup involving a real cab, then DI and Merged profiles are going to be your nest bet for accuracy. DI and Merged profiles were made to be used for the exact situation you described ;)


    Here's the video for anyone wanting to check it out:)

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  • Hi dacop1313! Another Kemper user actually recently made a video about this exact scenario and there's sound samples using both situations. You get to hear the difference with a mic'd up cab when using a DI profile vs a Studio profile with the cab turned off.


    Of course, if you get good results doing it another way, then do what sounds good to you :) But if you're wondering which kind of of profiles will most likely work the best with a setup involving a real cab, then DI and Merged profiles are going to be your nest bet for accuracy. DI and Merged profiles were made to be used for the exact situation you described ;)

    Very interesting..

  • Yes, the key here in the video is the KSR power section…


    I too thought that there was possibly a factor in the video that was affecting the outcome aside from the different types of profiles being used. It drove me to do a comparison of my own using a studio profile w cab off and the equivalent DI profile and tried running into a cab to see if the results were really that different :) I tried running through my Mesa Road King power section, and then my Orange Micro Dark solid state power section to see results not influenced by a tube power section. The results were always the same regardless of power section used.


    The results weren't night and day different but, the Studio profile had a noticeable amount more low end and sounded more "bloated"(not sure how else to describe it lol. It was definitely noticeable in direct comparison to the DI Profile, that the Studio Profile w/cab off still had some EQ from the cab in the amp section. Because it slightly had that effect that happens when you leave the cab section of the profile on when running into a real cab, and it causes the sound to be way too thick and muddy and sounds like a blanket is tossed on the cab, but to a more mild extent than when leaving the cab section on.


    I tried this comparison with a few different Studio and their equal DI or Merged Profiles. Pretty much all had the same type of outcome. The DI or Merged Profiles always sounded less muddy and less boomy.


    I'm not saying it can't sound good. Because it totally can. But, DI and Merged profiles were made to be used when using a real cab for a more accurate amp section with no cab section coloration. So it makes sense that DI and Merged Profiles would produce the most accurate results :)

  • Very interesting..

    Its a very interesting situation indeed, my friend :) After watching the video, it drove me to do a comparison of my own. And that's what actually finally made me come to the conclusion that I prefer DI and Merged Profiles through a real cab. It was an eye openening comparison ^^


    In direct comparison to DI and Merged Profiles, the Studio Profiles sounded more boomy and muffled. I even tried through a solid state power section to try non tube power section and it was the same.


    I guess that makes sense though. DI and Merged Profiles are more for the purpose of running into a power amp and cab, than Studio Profiles are. And with DI and Merged Profiles, there's no CabDriver algorithm guessing where to split the amp and cab, so you get a more accurate amp section with no coloration from the cab.


    Both can get good results though:)

    I guess it comes down to preference and experimentation ^^

  • Do we know for certain, that the amp part of DI and merged profiles are 100% the same? What really happens, when the merge button is used? Can we be sure the amp part is 100% unaffected?


    Just a question. For example, a known seller is providing DI profiles extra and was sharing videos trying to show, there is some difference.


    Another question. I know for sure, some commercial profilers sell "Merged" profiles, that in reality are only direct profiles with copied cabs from earlier profiling sessions (or the same cab copied to different DI). If this cabs are maybe just copied from studio profiles, cab driver is still active on this rigs. Is the amp part affected too in this case (cab driver guessing again)?

    Edited once, last by Ibot39 ().

  • Conceptually this is the result we should expect but good to hear it in practice...

  • Do we know for certain, that the amp part of DI and merged profiles are 100% the same? What really happens, when the merge button is used? Can we be sure the amp part is 100% unaffected?


    Just a question. For example, a known seller is providing DI profiles extra and was sharing videos trying to show, there is some difference.


    Another question. I know for sure, some commercial profilers sell "Merged" profiles, that in reality are only direct profiles with copied cabs from earlier profiling sessions (or the same cab copied to different DI). If this cabs are maybe just copied from studio profiles, cab driver is still active on this rigs. Is the amp part affected too in this case (cab driver guessing again)?

    ...not withstanding this context as well :)

  • Do we know for certain, that the amp part of DI and merged profiles are 100% the same? What really happens, when the merge button is used? Can we be sure the amp part is 100% unaffected?

    When I do a merge, da and studio profile set the studio and merged sound very similar while the da and the merged with the cab off do not sound that similar. For this reason I prefer to use DA profiles.

  • When I do a merge, da and studio profile set the studio and merged sound very similar while the da and the merged with the cab off do not sound that similar. For this reason I prefer to use DA profiles.

    That sounds weird. So you are saying that the merge function affects the amp part as well?

    Kemper PowerRack |Kemper Stage| Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune | 1988 Desert Yellow JEM

  • That sounds weird. So you are saying that the merge function affects the amp part as well?

    You can try this with any direct amp profile.


    Merge it with any studio. I know the match isn't the same but that shouldn't effect the outcome. The data for the direct part is set by the original direct amp profile.


    Note high gain is where you can really hear the difference.

  • No doubt about it, if you are using a Powerhead or a poweramp with a real cabinet, DI profiles are the way to go.

  • Do we know for certain, that the amp part of DI and merged profiles are 100% the same? What really happens, when the merge button is used? Can we be sure the amp part is 100% unaffected?

    Great question! This depends on the DI and Studio Profiles used to create the Merged Profile. The DI Profile needs to be the exact same as the Studio Profile, but without the Cab in the Profile. If the DI Profile is done after the Studio profile, and done with the same settings, the Merged Profile's amp section should be the exact same as in the DI profile and the Studio Profile.


    Of course, this is all in theory and the outcome comes down to the way the process is executed. When you press the "Merge Cabinet" button, Kemper compares the DI profile to the Studio profile that the Cab section was taken from, and subtracts the DI profile from the Studio Profile to get an accurate assessment of where the Amp section ends and Cab begins. Otherwise, CabDriver is just guessing where the Amp ends and Cab begins. So "Merging" a Studio Profile's Cab section from a different profile set or something, can change the amp section (in certain situations).


    And of course, you can always test these things for yourself, as I try to do when I'm curious about something such as this :)You can go through the process of correctly making a Merged Profile, and before saving, you can turn the Profile's Cab section off and run the Kemper into a real Cab, and then toggle "Merge Cabinet" on and off while keeping the profiles cab section turned off to see if the Amp section changes when being "Merged". This is how I have tested this out with various Profile sets (its important to use Studio and DI Profiles made in the same session or equal to each other for accuracy) and I found the outcome varies and really depends on the DI and Studio Profiles, and whether or not they were close enough to the same to begin with. That's why for the most accurate results, it's recommended to use a DI and Studio Profile made with the same Amp settings or from the same session Profiling session.

    Another question. I know for sure, some commercial profilers sell "Merged" profiles, that in reality are only direct profiles with copied cabs from earlier profiling sessions (or the same cab copied to different DI). If this cabs are maybe just copied from studio profiles, cab driver is still active on this rigs. Is the amp part affected too in this case (cab driver guessing again)?

    In the situation you're talking about, it depends on whether or not the Cab from a different Studio Profile from a previous session has been "Merged" or not with the DI Profile (whether or not "Merge Cabinet" was pressed). It's possible to just use Cab section from a Studio profile with a DI profile and not merged the cabinet. If the Cab section isn't "merged" then the algorithm that compares the Studio and DI Profile to find the Amp and Cab seperation isn't engaged. And if it isn't engaged, then the Amp section of the profile should remain unchanged.


    Without engaging "Merge Cabinet", it's just like layering a cab section after the DI Profile and it won't change the Amp section. But once you "merge" the cab section, that's when the Amp section can be affected by the "Merge Cabinet" function depending on the DI and Studio Profiles used to make the Merged Profile. If done correctly (by using equal DI and Studio Profile), the Amp section of the Profile should be the same as before. But like I said before, In practice there are a lot of variables and the outcomes vary quite a bit.


    I've actually experimented a lot with "merging" cabs and making Merged Profiles out of various combos of DI Profiles and Cabs from Studio Profiles that I've saved as Presets. Sometimes using "Merge Cabinet" with Profiles from different sources can yield really good results depending on your preferences. I actually posted a thread about it a while back called - "Revelation for Merge Cabinet" or something like that. It explains some of the results I've gotten when experimenting to give some insight for people wondering more about the "merge cabinet" function.


    But regardless, you can test all of these things yourself to find out the effects of making Merged Profiles using different methods and that should at least give you some perspective on the questions you asked, as well as helping you form your preferences as far as using different types of Profiles for different situations. :) It can't hurt to try some of this stuff for yourself ;) It definitely helped me get a better understanding of using the "Merge Cabinet" button and helped me gain a better understanding of the different types of Profiles and making Merged Profiles^^ And if anything, it'll at least give you the opportunity to find the answers to your questions first-hand, so you don't have to just take my word for it :)


    All the info given in this reply is based on research, experiences, and info from other Kemper users. But I'm not always right and there's probably info I'm missing, or info I'm not getting 100% right lol. But I'm sharing in hopes that some of it might help answer some of your questions, or encourage you to try these things to find out first-hand and get answers that you can be confident about;)