Kemper Mini?

  • I recently listened to the boss gt-1 ib yt and...Sure great you can load third party IRs. But will it make it sound better? To me the problem with boss gt models is the lack of not sounding convincing enough. They sound digital. Sure the effects are good. But as an amp solution? Nah.

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

  • I recently listened to the boss gt-1 ib yt and...Sure great you can load third party IRs. But will it make it sound better? To me the problem with boss gt models is the lack of not sounding convincing enough. They sound digital. Sure the effects are good. But as an amp solution? Nah.

    I've had the same experience. The Katana line is very good. Especially for what it costs. But their floor-based stuff is.....well....I'll stop at unconvincing.

    Some people clearly like it and I don't want to be perceived as a hater. SOMEONE is getting good sounds out of them.

    How? I have absolutely no idea. Lots of fiddling, I imagine.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • I've had the same experience. The Katana line is very good. Especially for what it costs. But their floor-based stuff is.....well....I'll stop at unconvincing.

    Some people clearly like it and I don't want to be perceived as a hater. SOMEONE is getting good sounds out of them.

    How? I have absolutely no idea. Lots of fiddling, I imagine.

    If users love them, well good for them. But I will never be a fan. Tried a few of them thru the years in music shops and that's it. I just don't know why they can't sound better, amp wise. I mean there's no lack of talent at BOSS. I mean they should be a serious competitor to kemper, fractal and helix.

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

  • I've had the same experience. The Katana line is very good. Especially for what it costs. But their floor-based stuff is.....well....I'll stop at unconvincing.

    Some people clearly like it and I don't want to be perceived as a hater. SOMEONE is getting good sounds out of them.

    How? I have absolutely no idea. Lots of fiddling, I imagine.

    Isn't the Katana just a GT-100 (same dsp based amp models) into a solid state poweramp? Maybe the FET input and poweramp section into a real cab just feels better?

  • If CK is reading this, I am a professional product manager (and a weekend warrior musician ;) ).


    If I worked for Kemper (and that would sure be a fun job to have), I would absolutely be advocating a Kemper Mini as the next piece of hardware in the series.


    Requirements:


    1. ~$700 MAP
    2. No profiling capability
    3. Same LCD on current FC (economy of scale and less code rework)
    4. Same DSP and electrical architecture as current products
    5. No looper
    6. 2 rows of 4 buttons ([top]Perf up, Perf Dn, Tuner on/off, Slot 5 [bottom] slot 1, slot2, slot3, slot 4 in performance)
    7. Compatible with current Rig Manager GUI editor and librarian
    8. ****** bluetooth interface to a phone or tablet app for any on-stage editing *************

    My rationale is that there are likely MANY times more people willing to pay $700 for the Kemper than there are those willing to pay $1700 (stage) or $2100 for a KPA Rack/head with a foot controller. There really is a massive product gap in the lineup with respect to the market.


    My idea behind the Mini would be that it is intended to be setup at home for gigs, then used only for rig and performance switching on-stage. It would also be targeted at a lower priced market and would be a higher volume product.


    Without doing the market research, I would guess that Kemper would sell 5 to 10 Mini's for every full KPA.


    Anyway ..... that would be my next move ;)

  • I think you are absolutely right!

    I would keep my Kemper KPA at home and for gigs where I need a cabinet.

    But for traveling, or for using it with an acousitc guitar the mini would be great. I think it would be important to not make it heavier than 1.5 kg.

    I think many people who already have a KPA or stage now would buy aditionaly a kemper mini.


    They really should do it soon, since the Neural DSP quad cortex will be available in some weeks and I guess this will be the first real competitor for Kemper soundwise. The design concept looks very interesting.

    never thought that I would like the Kemper that much...! 8|

  • The problem might be that it is not much cheaper to make. I can see it would be quite easy to reduce the size if you let go of the big screen and controls. However, it would be quite a niche product if you reduce the connectivity, so there is not much of a saving in production.


    I love the idea for gigs. HX Stomp managed to keep midi and all the in and outs with loops in a small box.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • Unfortunately a mini unit would cost no less than their current products to produce, deleting a couple of capabilities doesn't lower production costs, with the added costs of bringing a new product to market.

    In effect, bringing a cheaper product to market with the same production costs is undoubtedly going to cannibalise sales from their existing products, all while making far less margin than they are now.

    One day they may have to do something like this to remain competitive, but at the moment they would only be driving down the market for their current products, that's the commercial reality


    Edit: looks like karlic's made the same point while I was typing

  • Working in machine and electronic industrie I can tell you that the production costs are just a small part in the whole calculation.

    Development, Marketing, After Sales Customer Service, Software Updates - these factors are quite important in the calculation of the end price of the product.

    And, a product in the size of HX Stomp with less switches and potentiometer is for sure cheaper than the Kemper Toaster or the Stage!

    If Helix Stomp can be sold for about 500.- and BOSS GT-1000 core for about 750.- there should not be a problem for Kemper to sell a Kemper mini for 800.- with a good margin.

    Only thing, they might sell less Toasters or Stages....

    But some customers who need a small unit are now buying the Helix Stomp or GT-1000 core or the quad cortex what means - Kemper

    is loosing customers :(

    never thought that I would like the Kemper that much...! 8|

  • the production costs are just a small part in the whole calculation.

    Even when you're manufacturing in house? You'd have to imagine setting up a production line in your workplace, how much would that increase your employer's operating costs?


    I imagine Kemper have set their pricing for their current products at a level that ensures they can remain a profitable, viable manufacturer.


    A sub $800 product that sounds as good as a Kemper would dominate the market. Kemper's existence as an in house manufacturer relies on the fact that this product doesn't currently exist

  • Even when you're manufacturing in house? You'd have to imagine setting up a production line in your workplace, how much would that increase your employer's operating costs?


    I imagine Kemper have set their pricing for their current products at a level that ensures they can remain a profitable, viable manufacturer.


    A sub $800 product that sounds as good as a Kemper would dominate the market. Kemper's existence as an in house manufacturer relies on the fact that this product doesn't currently exist

    Indeed!


    A company that waits around for a competitor to slip around behind them is playing checkers, not chess.


    My thoughts on keeping the LCD and code architecture are exactly so that the Mini would not have much development cost .... and could be maintained in the same code base as the head, rack and stage units.


    Additionally, total profit is easily increased at a lower margin with a higher volume product. This has some additional great side business effects:

    1. All the common parts used in the high volume product gives you less expensive parts and a lower COGS for your high margin products as well
    2. Having higher volumes allows the business to have greater influence in the bid for production partners
    3. The higher volume sales allows the business to lower their shipping costs across the board by cutting deals with shipping partners
    4. Having more products that share a common architecture allows the engineering resources to be allocated across a larger volume of goods sold .... and higher more engineers to work on the next generation of products and advance your product roadmap beyond the competition.

    FYI, I haven't actually decomposed the KPA, but my rough guess is that the Kemper Stage materials and labor cost per unit is likely ~$250.00 assuming that they order parts in batches of ~5000. As pointed out earlier, this isn't even close to all the cost of the unit since those darned engineers just demand they get paid, buildings must be paid for, utilities, insurance, benefits, etc, etc, etc .... Hardware companies need a steady diet of new sales in order to remain profitable. Creating an entirely new architecture is VERY expensive.


    Yep.... I would be putting my money on the Kemper Mini if I was a betting man ;)

  • Imagine a guy who revolutionized and was about to dominate a market at age 28. From the first product that hit the market in 1997 to the latest iteration in 2009 (when he was 40), he spent 12 years on this massively successful project. Let's call the product "Access Virus".


    After 12 years it was time for him to explore something totally new, something the world had not expected, a new challenge for him. So instead of milking the very last penny out of his first project, he preferred to put his focus and energy on something almost completely different. A product that again revolutionized a market. A new challenge that could define his way for the next 12 years. Let's call this product the "Kemper Profiler".


    With this history in mind, would you still put your money on him suddenly changing his (proven) business approach? Or would you rather bet your money on something completely different and groundbreaking for the next 12 years?


    If you're still wondering who I'm talking about ... it's not Uli Behringer. ;)

  • If you are looking for a Hx-Stomp sized kemper device, the whole board has to be redisigned so it is a multilayerd PCB, it would be really tight for starters. Line 6 is so big of a company I bet for them that was cakewalk, but it might take a lot longer for Kemper to do it. I mean, kemper stage is impresive enough considering everything. But I wish also to have an smaller simpler form factor, FM3 is the response from fractal, the market is going that direction.

    The answer is 42

  • ... the market is going that direction.

    Which market? Can you define the "market"?

    Would it make sense for Korg to release a 25 mini-keys pocket sized version of their flagship Korg Kronos? Or is it possible that they just serve another market?

    Why isn't Rolls-Royce capitalizing on their brand reputation by flooding the market with a stripped-down, more cost-effective compact car with a plastic miniature "Spirit of Ecstasy" on the hood?


    I'm certainly not a hopeless Kemper fanboy and I'm sure there's enough people here who could testify to that.

    But one thing I really like about them is that they take a different approach to "doing things" ... as opposed to the "turbo-capitalistic, revenue-maximizing no matter what, planned-obsolescence, what the f** is customer service" business others tend to fall for.

  • I'm happy with the Kemper Stage (I just bought) as the smallest form factor I'm willing to use in a live setting. I doubt I'd buy a Kemper Mini.


    At the very least, a Kemper Mini would have to have buttons for

    Performance Up

    Performance Down

    Five buttons for rigs within the Performances with second-press to Morph

    Buttons for four effects or at least four inputs for switches and pedals

    Lights showing the status of effects

    AND

    It would have to run on 5 volts (USB) or 9 volts (standard pedal voltage)


    Background

    I have a Profiler head with Remote. With current conditions, I had to adapt and change to play small gigs outdoors in non-conventional settings. This sent me off on a quest for a smaller, lighter, battery-powered solution. I tried the Strymon Iridium and the Line 6 HX Stomp. Neither are battery powered, but they both can run off an external USB battery pack if you get the right adapters. The Strymon Iridium sounds excellent for what it does, and it would be okay as an emergency backup, especially for someone who regularly uses pedals. I don't. However, for a couple hundred dollars more, the Line 6 HX Stomp offered more in a slightly larger box.


    It was too much work to deal with the (very clever) three-button interface. I mean, a lot of work. And I didn't enjoy having to learn a new way of thinking (Helix thinking) to get to an outcome.


    On the day I returned the Line 6 HX Stomp to the store, they had just gotten in the Kemper Stage. I bought the Stage on the spot. Of course, the Stage requires AC power, so I bought one of those portable power packs (battery with pure sine-wave converter). You can read about that here: Jackery Portable Power

  • Which market? Can you define the "market"?

    Would it make sense for Korg to release a 25 mini-keys pocket sized version of their flagship Korg Kronos? Or is it possible that they just serve another market?

    With respect, this analogy doesn't hold up. The guitar you play would be the same size with a tiny amp, although mini keys are not pleasant to play.


    The market is for people travelling either by air, or to small gigs on the tube. Portability. If they think it is not reasonable to make one, then fine. It is interesting for some of us and I certainly would keep my other Kemper too.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • First, a Kemper Mini would not (and good Lord should not) be built to complete with the stage, rack, and head units. Of course they are better and more functional than a Mini would be.


    The purpose of the Mini would be to satisfy a market for a less expensive Kemper.... and for people who want a very small throw-and-go solution that is even smaller than the Kemper Stage.


    Would I buy it? Probably as a backup (assuming I ever get a healthy gig schedule again).


    I would also note that just because Kemper decided to make a Mini to round out their product offering, it does not mean that there would not be a next generation.


    In fact, I would argue that the Mini would provide the funding for just such a new product line.


    As for the new board being some kind of an issue for Kemper, I can assure you that it is not. It is possible that NONE of the Kemper hardware products were actually laid out (board layout) by Kemper. Many small companies (and even some larger ones) outsource the board layout since this is a skill set that is rarely needed ..... even within a company that makes boards like Kemper. It is more likely that the schematic capture and electronic design is done internally .... though even that is frequently outsourced.


    So lets look at the product lineup today:


    Kemper Head (Optional Power Amp)

    Kemper Rack (Optional Power Amp)

    Kemper Stage

    Kemper Foot Controller

    Kemper Kabinet


    3 of 5 of these products all share the same electronic architecture and code base. The Kemper Kabinet has no code in it. The Kemper Foot Controller likely shares some aspects of the head firmware (since it shares the LCD).


    Adding a Mini to the lineup (which also shares the same electronic architecture and code base) is a fairly simple way to raise revenue and increase the companies efficiency and purchase power through higher volume.


    Sure ... a new product is due, but keep in mind that now there is a significant product line infrastructure that would also need to be re-engineered.


    ** New FC for the new Head

    ** Rack version

    ** Stage version

    ** Rig Manager and editor


    Don't get me wrong, I think that this is necessary. The DSP being used inside the KPA will not be in production forever and will need replaced. That alone will require a new version of the KPA.


    And just because a company decides to make a new generation of products does not always mean that that the new generation is superior in all ways to the last.


    Digitech created the 2101 and 2120 guitar processors first, and before that the RP-1. All of these processors were geared at the high end. Look at their newest products.... plastic, cheep, really a shade of the RP2120... BUT they sell them in a competitive market at the low end and (I suspect) make a fortune doing it.


    That is an extreme example. I don't suspect that Kemper is planning on going for the sub $300 market as Digitech did. What I am suggesting is that there are MUCH higher volume sales to be had at the $700-$800 market than there is at the $1700 and $2100 market.


    Seriously, what could anyone buy at $800 today that would compete with a Kemper Mini as I have described it?

  • OneEng1 I totally get your line of thought and generally it is very rational and logical, by "modern economy" standards (where growth and profit is the ultimate goal). However it requires one more factor: CK would need to _want_ to do it. Kemper is on the market for many years and I'm pretty sure that if CK was thinking like you outlined he'd not deliver Stage but something like above described Mini. They can do this any time, to be honest (and I'd buy one for sure!). But not all companies are constantly chasing growth and expansion, fortunately. Some companies, especially privately owned, just want to stay small, are fine with what they have, like to have great relationship with customers, as long as they can make a decent living out of it and have fun while doing so. Kemper had at least 4 - 5 years to create killer, low cost, made in far east, mass-produced unit which would bring them fat $$$, but they didn't do so. So to me it looks like as long as don't have to, they just don't want to do it, and they don't care about having even more $$$ as much. Their goals and values seem to be different. And this is fine and actually quite admirable.

  • I would go for WiFi all the time over BT. Why?


    a) The KPA ethernet spec is potentially already existing (see Remote)

    b) WiFi is more stable than Bluetooth and can be easily repeated

    c) The KPA could be included into existing ethernet networks (e.g. at stage, at home, in studios) - since a lot of guys for sure use digital mixers, there is a network existing in most bands anyway

    d) A potential app would be compatible with the classic profilers (not with the stage due to the lack of an ethernet interface - I still do not get why they "optimized" it away ... ethernet is always good to have on a future proof hardware these days which is intended to get several software updates enlarging functionality)


    Just my 2 cents as someone working with product designers. :P8o:D Working on this piece of hardware would be indeed a cool job, I second you. :thumbup::)